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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

When red flags aren't really red

369 replies

Hiphopopotamus · 31/05/2016 19:32

Hi everyone. Been reading a lot on here about red flags and abusive relationships. I was wondering if anyone else was in the same position as me - where things taken out of context look bad, but are actually part of a good relationship. I just find it a bit worrying when sometimes these types of things come up, and everyone automatically assumes that the relationship is awful.

Contact - my DP expects me to stay in contact with him unless I've told him I'm going to be busy. He has no issue if I genuinely can't talk but he will worry if I don't respond within the hour if I haven't told him I'll be busy.

He tells me what I can and can't wear - or rather, he tells me what he'd prefer. He doesn't like me wearing anything revealing in public so out of respect for him, I don't.

There are quite a few more things like this, but hopefully you get the general gist. Our relationship is loving, kind and supportive, despite some things that could easily be picked up as being 'red flags'. Can anyone else identity with this.

OP posts:
Happyinthehills · 02/06/2016 08:27

Hiphop before you marry your DP please try a some little experiments. Push at his boundaries by wearing a bit of makeup, maybe a slightly edgy outfit or losing contact for a few hours (maybe your battery failed) and see what his reaction is.

seeyounearertime · 02/06/2016 08:28

IMO, the difference between compromise, control, being respectful of partners wishes etc etc. what ever you want to call it is the behaviour of the requester.

EG:
if my GF said,
"Don't paint your nails red, people stare and it embarasses me"
I like painting my nails so often have them red, purple, blue what ever, so say I paint them anyway. In my mind:

Abusive: GF would sulk, go quiet, maybe shut doors with a little more force than usual, maybe say something like, "I thought i asked you not to paint your nails?" which could lead to an argument etc etc

Non Abusive: No difference in attitude, behaviour etc and maybe an off hand but well humoured comment about me being odd.

Does that make sense?
One way leads to an unpleasant atmosphere where the abuser hopes that the abused will avoid in future, the other way leads to no repercussions or at gentle light humoured comment at most.

Roussette · 02/06/2016 08:33

FIS To me saying please don't wear nail varnish because the smell makes me feel sick is pretty pathetic and an excuse to make the person not wear nail varnish, along with make up. Anyone could paint their nails in another room and once it was done there would be no smell.

So... it's no nail varnish, no make up, hair done the way a DH likes it, dress the way he wants. And there's not a problem with that? Anyone who thinks this isn't controlling is deluded.

I know what suits me and my body shape as far as clothes, I know how I want my hair, I love my nails and painting them, I look sooo much better with make up, and my DH respects the fact that I know myself and what suits me.

You say it's controlling of the woman to do things when you know your DP doesn't like it. What the heck is controlling of doing your hair how you like or being able to wear make up? My DH has grown a small beard, not sure I like it TBH but he's had it for 2 years now and it's grown on me yes I have chin hairs too! It's his body and someone likened him to some famous celeb hunk so he really likes it now and there is no way I would be asking him to shave it off.

I can honestly say I am completely taken aback at anyone who has to not wear make up, nail varnish, different clothes and hair... just to please a DP.

Roussette · 02/06/2016 08:36

That should read "You say it's selfish of the woman to do things when you know your DP doesn't like it. (not "controlling").

No, not selfish at all. It's all about being a person in your own right

Hueandcry · 02/06/2016 08:50

Don't. Marry. Him

Op please read the responses on this thread & take on board the advice you have been given.

The flags are red & believe me I know from bitter experience. I was you & now I have ptsd from what a "DP" just like yours did to me. Please listen

ricketytickety · 02/06/2016 08:51

This might be relevant to you op or to someone else reading this thread but I wanted to say about the 'he doesn't hit me' thing...

Hitting is often the last thing a violent partner does. They might actually never hit you, but they can still damage you physically in many other ways that can range from leaving you feeling shocked, to a bruise, to fearing for your life, to death.

Anyfucker is spot on: the verbal/physical abuse happens when you resist being controlled in some way.

It can start with a 'row' and you might think it was just a 'row' that got 'out of hand'. He might start with name calling and insults and you might begin to believe them. But if you get fed up and ask them to stop, it moves on to more physical stuff. He might throw something near you, or at you and then apologise - he didn't mean to get you. He was just frustrated. Next time you put your foot down, he might grab your arm or shove you. When you get desensitised to this he might up the anti and kick you. Usually this is when the line has been crossed into physical aggression and verbal insults becoming the norm with no more apologies or tears, but him telling you you wound him up/nag him/wore that makeup he told you not to wear.

I just wanted to make it clear that hitting doesn't tend to happen. That's so a man can say 'I've never hit a woman.' But in a physically abusive relationship he might have given you plenty of scares and bruises from throwing things, pushing, shoving, grabbing, kicking, holding etc. You might never have a black eye, but you may have bruises on your arms/legs/back. Of course, he knows you'll keep these hidden. He might even tell you you caused them yourself.

It's an escalation that happens each time you resist control and when the previous punishment didn't work.

So yes, if you decide to allow him to dictate what you wear and never complain, it might not escalate to physical violence. It might already have happened but you put it down to an accidental shove during a 'row'. It really isn't obvious when it is happening to you because the media concentrate on images of men raising their fists and women with black eyes. He might already have been verbally abusive by saying 'women who wear thingsl ike that are whores' or such like which is his way of saying 'wear that and you are a whore'.

So your red flags that aren't red flags - I genuinely feel that you have posted because you want to double check if they are or not. But even if you sincerely believe it's ok he controls you because you control him back, right now there are other women reading the comments on this thread who need to hear the message that it is never ok to control someone in a relationship. Mutual respect does not involve telling someone what to wear. And like anyfucker said, it's when you start to push back that you might see some level of abuse to keep you in check.

That's why it is a red flag, so that you can check out of the relationship without having to experience anymore abusive measures.

Be kind to yourself and look after yourself.

FIS2016 · 02/06/2016 09:05

I think it's fine for partners to have a preference for clothes for their partner to wear. I also have preferences for things my partner wears and his hairstyles. My husband works in a professional environment and for ease would just cut his hair one length with the clippers as he doesn't like going to the barbers. I think it looks awful and so leaner to cut his hair myself. He looks more attractive and more professional and my husband is happy with the style. I've not controlled him, only stayed my preference which he has accepted.

I think clothes and hair etc are reasonable things for a partner to request. I imagine most of you dress on a mainstream way which your partners likes. Say if you were going for a business dinner with your husband (your work not his) and he decided he quite liked Simon Cowell's look with the shirt unbuttoned to his waistband and overly long trousers you wouldn't be embarrassed and ask his to change?

Zaurak · 02/06/2016 09:13

If your partner said can you stay in tonight as i feel lonely and want company, would you say no?

Of course not. I'd be concerned, check he was ok, spoil him a little.

If he did it every single time I wanted to go out, or to the point it was curtailing my life and movements, I'd be very concerned indeed.

And as for the nail polish example, well I'm pretty sure 99.5% of men don't even give a thought to nail polish. A man who's trying to discourage you from wearing it is controlling.

And let me say about the idea that he's controlling because he fears you'll cheat. It's not just that. Men who think like this are generally the ones who subscribe to covering women up because they think men can't (or more rather shouldn't) suppress their 'urges' in the face of 'temptation.'
So not only is he treating you like chattel, disrespecting you by assuming you'll cheat, he's also saying that he thinks men on some level aren't responsible for their actions in the face of temptation by us terrible jezebels. That to me is even worse, because it feeds that attitude (which he has) that any bad behaviour on his part is because you provoked him.
There's another thread on here where a woman is excusing her violent tossed of a bf by saying her nervous laugh must annoy him. Poor guy, that he's unable to control himself in the face of a nervous laugh.... 🙄

seeyounearertime · 02/06/2016 09:15

I wouldn't give a shiny shite if my GF went to my works do in a neon green bikini and hair like Marge Simpson.

She is a person, totally independent and capable of her own thoughts. If she asked how she looked i would tell her no more than my opinion, if she took it on board then that's up to her, i certainly wouldn't tell her to go change, she's not a child.

FIS2016 · 02/06/2016 09:22

Zaurak- the post you are referring too is clearly abusive. It's unlikely he will change in the course of her relationship, so if I were her I'd remove myself ASAP.

The OP hasn't said she really wants to do something and her husband is refusing her. If so then I would agree that is abusive.

You can google domestic abuse checklists and see if you fit into any of those points. I know I certainly don't. And it sounds like the OP doesn't either yet mumsnet often screams abuse. If you feel abused you probably are and should get out. We are both saying we are happy.

venusinscorpio · 02/06/2016 09:31

Rickety

Reading that was somewhat chilling, a perfect description of my ex. Totally correct that violence doesn't have to mean hitting. He was adamant that he didn't hit women and he couldn't understand how men did. I didn't dare to contradict him on that, even though technically, he was on dodgy ground with kicking me, pinching me, shoving me etc. Once he dragged me along the floor by my hair. But no, he didn't "hit me."

Inexperiencedchick · 02/06/2016 09:44

Zaurak there are men who actually are very interested in what nail polish you use. Thank you for posting that and reminding me that I had a lucky escape.
Someone I was about to date. But luckily all his little questions made me put so much pressure on myself that I pulled myself back...

And yes there were those little questions where I'm now and what I'm up to...

I should accept myself very lucky

💐 To you Zaurak and all MNs who actually highlights red flags.

corythatwas · 02/06/2016 09:44

Two points that might be worth considering:

a) sometimes you hear women claim that they are equal with their partners in level of control- but it just so happens that the woman never seems to feel the same need to exercise the same level of control; again, the man is seen as very loving and kind because he is never violent- it just so happens that the woman gives in to him over everything. These are not, in fact, loving and equal relationship.

A loving and equal relationship is one where both partners feel equally free and relaxed about expressing a preference and equally able to handle contradiction.

b) OP, you are planning to have children together. This means that one day you will be having teenagers. Teenagers have their own ideas, their own personalities and (heaven help us!) their own dress sense. And they have never signed up to a particular kind of relationship, so they will (quite rightly imo) feel entitled to the same kind of relationship that most relatively happy teens have with their kindly and relatively relaxed parents. Can he handle that?

Roussette · 02/06/2016 10:12

FIS totally agree on your first para, that is all normal within an equal relationship. My DHs hair is dire if it grows too long so I prompt him to go to the barbers. He will say to me "are you wearing those same high heels as you wore to the last party, you didn't half moan at how they hurt all night"

However, your second para makes a bit of a leap to "it's OK for a DP to request how you do your hair or what clothes you wear". No no no! It is not AFAiC. Suggest, yes. Request is not suggesting, it is bordering on telling. And the other party feeling obliged at fitting in with all these daft requests like no nail varnish, no make up, hair in a certain way. What's it to a DP? They aren't the one without the nail varnish or without the make up, why on earth should they stipulate this? And why on earth would you fall in with that, where does it stop? It's completely beyond me. My DH fell in love with me for a reason and he trusts my judgement as to what to wear on business dinners or whatever. I might say to him... that tie goes better with that shirt do you think? He might say yes, thanks, you're right. Or he might say, Ive always liked this tie. That's fine too. If that night I want to wear a dress with cleavage and a face full of slap, he'd be thinking oh hell Rous hasn't been out for a while, she's up for a good night! (he loves it when I'm life and soul Grin)

venusinscorpio · 02/06/2016 10:33

And no, my partner didn't start off abusive. But he did start off jealous and controlling while saying it was for my own good and because he loved me, red flags I wish I'd paid more attention to. But I was only a teenager and had never had a proper boyfriend before.

ptumbi · 02/06/2016 10:40

If your partner said can you stay in tonight as i feel lonely and want company, would you say no? - depends. If it was something I'd committed to, then yes, I'd still go out.
BUT THAT'S NOT THE POINT! The point is - what does he do next?

I wear make-up he doesn't like. What happens?
I wear a cleavage-enhancing top - What happens? What does HE do??

OP _ you say you wear your hair in a style he likes. You don't wear make up because he doesn't like it - and you are OK with that - but what if you were not ok with that? WHAT HAPPENS??

I get the impression tat you are both either very traditional, OR religious, (Or both) and you are well trained in doing what the man wants.

Please think very carefully about every point made on this thread. Even if you finally decide that you are OK with being told where to be and what to do and what to wear - think carefully about whether children will accept it so quietly.

Artistic · 02/06/2016 11:08

OP - can I ask you how he conveys his displeasure to you when you are not locateable or wear something he doesn't want you to? Does he request you or does he demand that you do what he wants? I can tell you that I am quite a worrier and if I can't get hold of my husband I can go a bit mad. I've been known to call his boss or colleague to ask him to call me. One day the whole office was running around to locate him while he was in a meeting where there was no network. I am always imagining the worst and think of accidents, assaults, blacking out etc. But I don't control his movement, I don't need to know where he is and with whom. I just need to know he is ok. My DH is similar with my clothes but would not stop me from wearing what I want even if he's not thrilled with it. At best he might cajole me to wear a sweater or scarf or tights rather than go as I please. But over the years he's really relaxed this too and doesn't really say much other than complimenting me (guess he knows am getting old and won't attract dirty looks Angry). Guess am saying that given that it's otherwise a good relationship, you need to see his attitude and approach of conveying his preferences to know whether he is controlling or not. In some couples there can be an unwritten understanding about what's more important to whom. So what's important to you - that he makes accommodations for?

HoldTheDoorHodor · 02/06/2016 12:32

I've been thinking in the whole 'he hasn't hit me' comment.

This is why we refer to them as flags. They are the signs that you are at risk. Listening to the signs and being aware may well prevent you from being the next woman in here who my heart breaks for because their partner or spouse has physically assaulted them.

It's a warning. If there was a siren it would be blaring by now from your posts. And when I siren blares you run. I dated a man who gave me signs. I was 19 and it took 3 years before, after a proposal, I realised and listened. My entire body screamed not to commit more of my energy. I listened. And now I'm married to a genuinely good man. Where neither of us are afraid to disagree with the other, or do something just for ourselves.

Please think about it.

Rightho · 02/06/2016 13:54

Ptubmi has it OP - read this and think about it:

If your partner said can you stay in tonight as i feel lonely and want company, would you say no? - depends. If it was something I'd committed to, then yes, I'd still go out.
BUT THAT'S NOT THE POINT! The point is - what does he do next?

Hiphopopotamus · 02/06/2016 16:30

Please stop it everyone. I can't read anymore of this. Twisting my words to make him sound like an abuser. He's not. He's amazing. And I love him. I appreciate your concern but please direct it to the threads that actually need it. That's not me. I'm happy. I love him. And I'm going to spend the rest of my life with him, raise a family with him, and grow old with him.

OP posts:
BitOutOfPractice · 02/06/2016 16:34

I'm not quite sure who you're trying to convince there OP

I just know that if my DP tried to tell me what I can and cannot wear and questioning me when I don't text to this timetable, I would be showing him the door

Lottapianos · 02/06/2016 16:35

So why did you start the thread OP? Were you looking for reassurance that his controlling behaviour is normal? It sounds like you're not as happy with it as you think you are and that's ok. Justifying a partner's behaviour by pointing out that he's never actually hit you doesn't indicate a healthy or happy relationship

seeyounearertime · 02/06/2016 16:35

OP, i for one hope that you're happy and that all these warning signs are the posters, myself included, reading more than is there.

Good luck for the future, i'm hopeful you will be very happy.

Thurlow · 02/06/2016 16:37

OP, I think what most people are trying to say is that there are standard tactics and behavioural traits that occur in most abusive or controlling relationships, and they are saying that fact that you have recognised some of them in your relationship is probably not a good thing.

Baconyum · 02/06/2016 16:37

I agree I think you're trying to convince yourself we're wrong, but if that were true not only would you not have posted you wouldn't have had the thoughts that prompted the post in the first place.

In addition you have the choice not to read/hide the thread, out posts could still help someone else in a similar situation.