Let's Get Ready! It's Dating Thread 103

[DrFoxtrot]

The Rules:

1. The first rule about the dating thread is you don't talk about it with people you're dating.
2. Develop a thick skin.
3. Do not invest emotionally too soon.
4. It's all BS until it actually happens.
5. Trust your gut instinct.
6. People vanishing, lying & being generally weird is not your fault.
7. You are the prize-they should be trying to impress you.
8. If it's not fun, stop.
9. Loo update is mandatory.

10. No dating the thread. 11. Read Why Men Love Bitches (aka WMLB), and take from it what you will. 12. Don't serve up moose burgers on the first date (although this is still in debate right now) 13. Matthew Hussey also very useful. And very easy on the eye even if you don't find him any good. 14. IF THEY SAY THEY DON'T WANT A RELATIONSHIP, THEY DON'T WANT A RELATIONSHIP.

That doesn't sound needy Freaky, it sounds assertive. Just tell him what you want and what you expect in a relationship and if he doesn't give you a good vibe then maybe you should think again? You have standards, right?

I completely understand what you're saying freaky, I've had times in relationships when I thought I'd seriously lose my mind with the angst of it all!

But I'd think very carefully, and try to play out all the possible scenarios in your mind first.

If you speak on the phone he may try to reassure you, but will you feel reassured afterwards, without having the comfort of physical contact?
He may be cool and distant, but refuse to give you a definitive answer, and then you'll be left in that horrible "I know it's over really but I still have a glimmer of hope" state.

Or he may say he's not interested any more, and then you'll have been dumped on the phone, which is horrible.

Of course he may have a perfect explanation, be lovely to you, and everything will be fine. But for me, I'd be too scared of the other options to risk it.
Have you heard from him much over the weekend?

Any of those scenarios is better than where I am though Jolly. And it depends on how he responds to my message later. If he's back to "normal" I will let it go until Saturday but if not, I will ask to talk.
I haven't heard from him at all since 9pm Friday but we both said "have a good weekend" so I didn't really expect to hear from him. I am not hanging on for a message!

I know the wait seems impossible, Freaky but - if the reason for the cooling off by text is paranoia due to the dtd I think it would be far better to address it face-to-face. Because he may just not be able to disclose something like that on the phone?

Plus when you call him on it you'll need absorb all of all his non verbal communication - I think you won't be able to properly gauge the nuances of his reaction on the phone?

I know this simmering stuff makes you properly angry - I've been exactly where you are over the last few weeks. Anger is an emotion that covers other feelings up... Have a feel of what's beneath the anger, though - probably feeling duped, let down, hurt, insecure, etc... Better to speak to Bacon from those more vulnerable feelings than from an angry place? When we act out of anger (with someone we've met twice?) it might end up seeming disproportionate? (Thinking of me and Twix here). If you're going to move forward best to be real about it and have it as a face to face communication. I know on the fb group it's more 'he's a b'stsrd how dare he' but really all that vibe is from a hurt/angry place. Understandable and very WMLB but maybe not as likely to move things forward when you are starting something you hope will have legs. After dtd is a very wobbly place. Plus you can do all this from a more vulnerable place, gauge his reaction and still walk away if you aren't happy with his response.

Sorry, feel free to tell me to rein it in...

Freaky, I agree with Jolly that it's better to discuss it in person rather than on the phone or text. As long as you don't get too heavy about it I'm sure you'll be fine.

Please don't apologise Handy! That's really useful stuff and I appreciate all the advice that people have given me over the past week.
I just feel like I can't breeze into a date without having addressed this a bit..or at least acknowledged it,.If you know what I mean?
I do need to do some thinking about what I am feeling and why. My feelings are all over the place! Mostly sad and confused though. And powerless and I want to get some of that power back. And I do feel like either of us is being particularly honest, which bothers the hell out of me.

You don't have to 'breeze' into your next date, though, you can go in subdued, inquisitive, seeking clarification, open to whatever he says, etc. Not defensive, not angry but not breezy... In a sort of middle way???

Hmm, maybe I just need to adjust my expectations of next Saturday? Not see it as a "date" but as a chance to meet up and talk? That might help me to deal with it.
And it really does depend on how he responds later, I think. I am not rushing into anything though. I haven't sent any rash texts yet and I am not about to start now.

I know exactly what you mean about wanting to get some power back. But I would be asking myself what I want to get out of a phone call. Is it because I'm hoping it'll all be fine, or have I really reached a point where an answer - any answer - is better than this limbo? Because if it's the former, then it's best not to call. I would be worried about making the call, asking the questions, having an unsatisfactory conversation, then wishing I'd left it and waited until we were face-to-face.

In an ideal world we wouldn't do all this game playing and second-guessing. We would get straight answers and be treated with kindness and respect. But I've been dating men for 30+ years and sadly this is definitely not an ideal world!

If you adjust your expectations of next Saturday, go with the 'dating as discovery' mantra, maybe this will temper your feelings, allow you to not jump to conclusions and get you through the week?? Every date is a chance to discover more..... That's the point. That's the mantra...

I think what I am struggling with is how to set and communicate my standards and not be a bloody doormat, letting him set the tone/pace but without appearing needy or overstepping where we are in our relationship, if that makes sense?
One thing that talking to my brother made clear is that men do not like needy women! But also, that some women are genuinely needy and overstep (he told me some stories that would make you ) I think those women might be spoiling it for the rest of us as they are so on the look out for neediness that any kind of questioning comes across as needy? Maybe?

Yes but text and phone are not an ideal medium for this stuff. Ergo, there is an inherent neediness that comes with using these methods for these convos.

Take your power back next Saturday like this:,

1. staying sober
2. keeping your options of going home alone after absolutely open.

These are what will communicate your standards...

And let the rest be 'discovered'......

I agree with Jollyp & Handy to leave big topics for face to face - you CAN get through 6 days...
From my experience, phonecalls can get out of hand & things said can be misinterpreted & then spiral down.... Better f2f when all is calm

• but I would also an expect better communication after dtd as you do ...and as I said upthread - why do we pressure ourselves to be bright & breezy even when we're not feeling it? Be who & how you are...

Be who & how you are

Brilliant advice from ocelot

Let's not forget that communicated neediness is often(mostly?) induced by what the guy does though! We don't feel or act needy when they don't do the angst-inducing stuff like backing off!

I bloody love you lot! Dating as discovery indeed.

And it is now less than a week to go! I am going to get my motherfucking positivity back this week!

Still agree with Ocelot that it's shit that I have to pretend to be fine when I am not.

When your only options are text/phone, you don't have much choice at this point. Ditto the two week gap. Both those things are out of your control. And those 2 things are what sucks. Badly. But the rest, the important stuff, absolutely is in your control.

I spent last Saturday night looking bright & breezy when seeing M with a woman was killing me inside...nightmare... although I very glad I managed that at the time & was nothing but nice when he was off with me(WTF? Who hurt who?!) ....I'm kinda glad that i told him the truth too later in the message...why should we pretend that we do not have feelings, that we are not hurt when we are?

Freaky I'm not advocating anyone do anything like me here..

I think the best way to communicate your expectations whilst not appearing needy is to wait until Saturday.

Allow him to have his fortnight of crapness, don't berate him for it, act cool and breezy in messages etc.

When you see him, if he ends it then it's a done-deal anyway, and you can walk away being cool and dignified. If he wants to pick up where you left off, that's when it's time to assert yourself, and explain that you weren't impressed by his behaviour. That way you'll demonstrate that you're not a doormat, but equally you're not some crazy woman who'll hunt him down if he doesn't treat you right!

Can I just add that it's easy for me to dish out this advice when it's not me who's living though it. I am totally pathetic and needy and have done many crazy things over men, and no doubt I'll continue to do so!

Plus, for week two of simmering mode, you can definitely be less breezy on text. Be sparser on Whatsapp. It's ok to run out of messaging mojo.....

Jollyp I've lost my shit on here loads. And had the thread talk me down, particularly Sassy - she's marvellous at this stuff.

This is the place for losing it. It really is.

I have to say I agree with handy, I was telling you to call him out. However hearing her point of view I agree he could be covering his own insecurities and vulnerability by acting cool and not that bothered. Fear wears many different masks (anger, sadness, being cold and rude) we assume he's pulling away after you dtd, but it could be a case of he's not sure of himself.

It really is the place for losing it and it helps to get the crazy put here!
It's interesting to think what advice I would give someone in my situation. Probably exactly what you have been telling me!

Yay! Busy thread.

freaky the first person that counts in this whole situation is you. Ultimately do what you want / need to do. You have every right. That being said be very clear on what you are trying to achieve.
You may want some clarity on the situation, doesn't mean he will provide it.

This is my RL experience of men ( from all my male colleagues) on their communication modes.

1. they genuinely are busy and don't remember to text. Some do. Bloody clueless.
2. they put the effort in to chase and take down, once done is when they then ponder 'is this someone I like?' Communication tails off as a conscious thing on their part....they may like you but don't want you to think this is uber serious. Maintenance mode?
3. simmering. Keeping you on the back burner Incase someone better doesn't come along
4. all in, boom, they know, they're smitten and they are all in. Have zero problems letting you know and make it feel easy.

I had communication challenges with scot and despite my direct attempts at trying to flesh it out he evaded and deflected masterfully. Nothing he said or did quietened my disquiet (despite him reassuring me, something was off).
Similar with tree1, something felt not right.
I was right with both, neither were being honest about their circumstances/ what they were looking for.

I don't know you freaky but based on my personal experience I am always going to listen to my inner voice and give that priority over what anyone (including them) says. You're not wrong to think something is up, it is. Communication should not shift that much.

I wouldn't do anything via text. Continue as you are. Mentally switch off and assume you guys are done (protects you). Be friendly/ no more. When the next f2f happens (not a date), calmly state how you feel about his changed communication mode and sit back, wait and watch. Make him realise that nothing is a definite where you are concerned and he now has to put more effort in to see you. DTD post this date is off the table. (Will determine if he's just saying what he needs to say to get a booty call). Then walk away and see if he steps up. This is NOT game playing but the adult way of setting out expectations of getting to spend time with you. If he doesn't meet them, he's out.
A man with his shit together will respect that and if he likes you, step up.

If he doesn't and disappears, then quite simply put her isn't interested.
That's how I play it. Yes I have no OLD irons left but I'd rather have my piece of mind and self esteem in one piece as opposed to having a mind fuck inflicted on me.

And sorry for turning this thread into the Freaky and Bacon Show...