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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

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Leaving an abusive relationship may be a difficult choice but it's still a choice, right?

415 replies

maggiethemagpie · 27/03/2016 21:27

I will confess before we go any further that I have very little experience of abusive relationships. Personally - never, I am just not attracted to that kind of dynamic. I was exposed to my mum's abusive relationship with my stepfather when I was a child however. Maybe that's why I have 'never gone there' as an adult?

I have a friend who knows being with her abusive partner is the wrong thing, and says things like she hopes it will fizzle out or he'll want to spend less time with her (fat chance) but despite repeatedly trying to leave him, can't do so.

I have struggled to understand why. They are not married, or cohabiting, have no dependents, and have been together apx 18 months (they are late 30s) however she has been trying to leave him since 4 months in.

I can see that psychologically she's in some sort of trap, but surely the ultimate choice to stay or go is hers? I'm not denying that it's a difficult choice, it must be a very difficult choice but then life is full of difficult choices and these are what shape us and make us grow.

So is it a free choice to stay in these kind of relationships? Or is it a bit like addiction - where logically the right thing to do is to stop but due to the drug dependency it's not so easy?

I do have some experience with addiction so that may be an easier way to understand it. I don't subscribe to a disease model though - I still think remaining addicted to anything be it drink, substance or gambling or whatever, is still a choice although often a very difficult one.

So is remaining in an abusive relationship a choice or not?

OP posts:
Ludwsys · 28/03/2016 20:26

Lorelei, you have trust and commitment issues, apparently they are to be loved and applauded by yourself, ooo well done. A woman who has the same issues but at the opposite end of the scale are to be mocked, or at least completely and deliberately misunderstood by you?

lorelei9here · 28/03/2016 20:27

Thatslife, I'm trying to put make up on

no it's not always obvious, heck, I know of people who did Jekyll and Hyde on marriage.

but look at the case stated by the OP - that specific case please, not any others. Why is that woman still going back to that man?

flippinada · 28/03/2016 20:30

Lorelei If you want examples of adults being groomed - it's not unknown for peadophiles to target people with children and get into a position of trust where they can then get access to abuse them. I believe there's one lurking around the Adam Johnson appeal page on FB targeting mothers who've expressed sympathy with AJ, if you want to see one in action.

EasyToEatTiger · 28/03/2016 20:35

The woman has no children. Does she want a child? If she longs to become a mother, she will put up with a huge amount of shit. I think it's called procreation and the desire to breed.sarcasm. I think biology wins.

Thatslife72 · 28/03/2016 20:36

Maybe the friend of op has got issues, maybe she is scared to be on her own, maybe he has made her feel she will always be on her own because she is useless who knows, no one knows what goes on behind closed doors!

iamworthmorethanthis · 28/03/2016 20:53

I have been in my relationship for nearly 25 years, married for 15. At the beginning so charming so caring, after we had children slowly more controlling. I have been assaulted a few times by being bitten but mostly a lot of name calling, verbal abuse, emotional abuse. I am an idiot I don't do anything I know nothing etc. 20 years ago I was one of the strongest people you could meet. High flying career, excellent qualifications articulate. I have been in counseling for much of the last 7 years. I have strong support from my family and friends. I even have funds. However although I want to make a decision to leave I can't seem to actually do it. It feels as though this is happening to someone else not to me. I can reason that I would tell a friend to leave this situation but I get panic attacks if I start to take steps to get out. I brought a relative to the solicitor one day to sign the papers I thought I could go through with it but I started shaking and I couldn't. One counsellor said I have disconnected from what is going on because it is too painful. Another said I have post traumatic stress. Either way I am still trying. I don't know how people with no support can do this. Please don't post a reply which dismisses my situation or judges it if you haven't been there you can't possibly understand. I would have told you that I would never have put up with any negative behaviour but this has crept up and now I have children and I am more embedded. I feel that I need to make a decision with my head even though my heart is not there yet, just jump, believe the advice that my friends are giving me and get the hell out. I don't want to leave my house though and he definitely wouldn't leave If I reason too much I will go around in circles. No negative comments please this is very hard.

maggiethemagpie · 28/03/2016 20:55

If I knew, I don't think you can compare me not wanting to do something my partner doesn't want to do out of respect for him and his needs, to your marriage where you wouldn't do something if your partner didn't like it out of, I don't know, fear of upsetting him?

There's a world of difference between making a free choice to do or not do something because you are respectfully taking your partners needs into considertion, and feeling obligated not to do something due to a fear of upsetting someone.

My partner rarely gets upset with me, or upset if he doesn't have his own way. He is very laid back. But I like us to both agree with what we're doing, if we don't agree we wont do it.

OP posts:
saltlakecity · 28/03/2016 20:58

SmallLegs "And as for saying you'd leave your house, sleep rough, leave yourself in debt and risk losing custody of your kids because someone once called you a name salt, really? Well it's principled but I am not sure it's wise. Surely you'd stay long enough to sort out the finances, find somewhere for your kids to sleep etc. "

I don't have kids and would not be financially dependent on anyone if I could help it. Yes I'd leave. I'd rather stay with family or friends than be in an unhappy or abusive relationship. Any relationship where it results in name calling or worse is just wrong. I'm not saying relationships are always perfect but if you love someone you'd never deliberately hurt someone. I know not everyone has family or friends to stay with but I'm giving MY opinion in MY situation.

SmallLegsOrSmallEggs · 28/03/2016 21:06

Ah but salt the scenario I set out specifically did have kids. And no relatives or friends to go to. And it started out fine.

And co owning a house is not being financially dependent. Its co owning a house.

I asked what you would do in that situation not your situation. Most abusive rs start out without dc and without tied finances. They wait until you are in some way trapped before they bring on the real horror.

That is why it isn't easy to make blanket statements about DV.

OP has used a specific case of her friend to generalise about all abuse. And you jumped on that bandwagon.

maggiethemagpie · 28/03/2016 21:07

The woman has no children. Does she want a child? If she longs to become a mother, she will put up with a huge amount of shit. I think it's called procreation and the desire to breed.sarcasm. I think biology wins.

So any woman in her late 30s is going to put up with any old crap abusive relationship to have a baby? After all 'biology wins' as you say.

Absolute rubbish I'm sure some women may think like this but the vast majority of rational sane women would know not to have a baby with an abuser.

OP posts:
SmallLegsOrSmallEggs · 28/03/2016 21:10

All I know is if someone even so much as belittled me once, hit me, verbally or financially abused me I'd be gone the first time it happened. The OP has phrased things badly but I do sometimes wonder how people let things go beyond the first incident.

I was trying to get you to imagine a scenario where you might let it go beyond the first incident.
And the implication of that post was you'd leave regardless of your circs.
You neglected to mention that you never intend to get into a rs with dcs or a house.

IfIKnewThen · 28/03/2016 21:12

lorelei9here I had a fantastic internal bullshit detector prior to my marriage - I got a lot of flak for it too throughout my teens and twenties. Had a reflexive feeling about a friend of my friend and gently mentioned that I was wary - only to receive a 'you're not a nice person to say that'. Some years later my friend quietly mentioned that this person had turned out to be a nasty piece of work. Having a hard shell counts for nothing when an abuser targets you - all that mirroring and love-bombing is a heady mix. But later comes the blaming and the projecting, drip by drip.

Like I say - look at StillAwake's post - that IS the alarm bells and red flag and run away in the first few sentences. Who's on the phone? None of your business. We go out every Saturday? Er, no, dude, I have a life! - and you would accept this response from a partner of yours? Fuck off and don't ask me any questions? Is that a relationship you would consider children, living together or even marriage in?

StillAwake described a particular scenario where there was a pre-planned arrangement for one day, not an immovable weekly time to be spent only with their partner - but this happens too. (I could be wrong, I will go back and re-read). It's another part of the script, isolating you from friends and family. And it's all done with your best interests at heart, or so they subconsciously persuade you.

It's hard to leave in the face of 'but I love you' 'you're the best thing that ever happened to me' 'I need you', when your life is in chaos (that they created). It's called the FOG and spaghetti head. Thanks be to MN, Attila, and Lundy Bancroft for my awakening.

Regarding the decision making - my ex eventually spewed some crap about how my 'brilliant suggestions' made him feel so bad because he couldn't come up with anything better. I never breathed but I checked what he thought first. I call him the Black Hole because behind the façade he is an empty soulless void.

Enjoy the pub lorelei9here Wine Grin

And if I were to hazard a guess after several long years at the coalface of MN and PD's, I would gently suggest that no-one on here would pose such a question as the OP without there being some unexplored but nagging personal issue behind it. Flowers MN will be there for all whose life takes an unexpected turn.

SmallLegsOrSmallEggs · 28/03/2016 21:12

Perhaps your friend feels like the only real friend she has left is him.

One of the reasons IMO that women ho back is they hope they can 'fix it'. The only way to make it ok and to not feel like an idiot is if they can change the abuser and prove he was worth it after all.

Is your friend a fixer?

(Still don't make it her fault)

SmallLegsOrSmallEggs · 28/03/2016 21:14

There is also a phenomenon known as traumatic bonding.

flippinada · 28/03/2016 21:15

Nobody sets out intending to get into an abusive relationship.

It's a common factor of abusive relationships that abusive escalates or even begins during pregnancy, precisely when a woman is at her most vulnerable.

Rainbowlou1 · 28/03/2016 21:18

If I had read this thread back then I would have denied I was in the same situation...I actually worked for women's aid whilst in an abusive relationship myself and offered support to women just like me and went home to be treated like shit...nothing from an outsider empowers you because you are worthless and not worth empowering!!
I left because my friend told my parents when I begged him not to and I had the choice taken away, that friend then went on to be just as abusive when I fell for his charms thinking he had 'saved' me...
Years on I still have my mum asking me why I stayed and saying that it 'couldn't have been that bad' or I'd have left..
Try walking a mile in someone else's shoes and all that!

BertieBotts · 28/03/2016 21:19

It's more like addiction than anything else, although that's not quite right either, because with addiction the addict wants the thing they are addicted to and abuse victims don't want to be abused.

I read that the act of an abuser apologising and the hope that they will become nice does actually release the same chemicals in the brain as found in addicts. So there is that. But I can't tell you how that was found out or whether it's true.

I do know from a combination of personal experience, a lot of accounts of abusive relationships, and studies about happiness - happiness is always relative. So when your normal is much lower and more stressful than most people's normal, a glimpse of "nice" is like the most incredible diamond hallmark moment in comparison and that kind of rush is addictive or at least extremely attractive. Having such extreme lows and having normal at a low level makes the highs seem higher, if that makes sense.

Of course long term it's much nicer and more pleasant to have "normal" be calm and content and not have the lower level stress, anxiety and low self esteem battering you constantly but when you're in it you don't really see that that's what's happening because it's normal to you, you can't really imagine that "normal" is anything other than this feeling.

maggiethemagpie · 28/03/2016 21:35

If I knew, I've no doubt that the 'unexplored but nagging issues' are related to my abusive stepfather and my aversion to being controlled as a result.

I'm sure that's why my friends experience has triggered this.... It must hark back to when I was a child and didn't understand why my mum remained with my step dad, who was EA/controlling and on occasions physically abusive to me and my brothers (but not to my mum until the day she left).

OP posts:
IfIKnewThen · 28/03/2016 21:49

Maggie

If I knew, I don't think you can compare me not wanting to do something my partner doesn't want to do out of respect for him and his needs, to your marriage where you wouldn't do something if your partner didn't like it out of, I don't know, fear of upsetting him? I was most solicitous of my life partner - I asked him what he thought and felt, in order to elicit his wishes and opinions. A pointless exercise on reflection. He didn't care, as long as someone else was taking the burden for everything he could absolve himself of any responsibility, for anything. That sound like a relationship/marriage to you? And as for needs - my needs never came into it. Harsh but a lesson learned too late sadly.

There's a world of difference between making a free choice to do or not do something because you are respectfully taking your partners needs into considertion, and feeling obligated not to do something due to a fear of upsetting someone. My partner rarely gets upset with me, or upset if he doesn't have his own way. He is very laid back. But I like us to both agree with what we're doing, if we don't agree we wont do it. So what happens if you say No, or do you not say No very often? Again, please for some clarity describe a situation where your wishes took precedence over your partner?

EasyToEatTiger · 28/03/2016 21:49

I rather agree with SmallLegs. Time to stop blaming people. Abusive relationships can be on a slow burn, over decades. OP is fortunate to have a healthy relationship. It is not right to judge others for how theirs are held. If OP is tired of listening to moaning and groaning, then she is no friend. We all have our limits, so I suggest to OP that she makes some new friends and lets it go.

BertieBotts · 28/03/2016 22:05

"the vast majority of rational sane women would know not to have a baby with an abuser."

This is dangerous magical thinking.

Obviously, obviously, if you were picking potential fathers from a line up of men you'd not pick the one with angry eyebrows and fists clenched with a t-shirt that said "Where is my sammich?" on it. That's overly simplified of course but it's extremely easy to look at somebody's relationship or a man you know from the outside and think "God, who on earth would choose to have kids with him?"

That's the false sense of security, though.

Abusers do not start out abusive. Some, especially if they have narcissistic/controlling personalities (and all abuse stems from control, at its root) can come across as extremely charming and pleasant. They can often tick "all the right boxes" for fatherhood - stable job, well respected, authoritative, intelligent, etc etc. But if their abuse doesn't begin until pregnancy or after birth (which is extremely common as a pattern) then these things also count against you because you realise that any accusation of abuse is going to be difficult to believe as most people see this very clean nosed persona.

Or sometimes men who later turn out to be abusive hit a different kind of right box in women who want to be mothers - another common profile is the "little boy lost" or loveable rogue with a dark past, who struggles with his demons. This can start out fairly benignly and before real children actually come across some women can feel very strongly nurturing towards this type and almost "adopt" him in a kind of mothering way, feeling that love can fix him or that they aren't perfect themselves so you have to forgive somebody their imperfections. You can be very rational by the way and still believe this because it can also be an assumption that although he has his troubles, he would not take them out on a person he is loyal to aka you. Unfortunately what tends to happen is that little boy lost can't handle no longer being the centre of attention and throws tantrums, which are harder to handle in a fully grown man who is bigger than you than in a two year old you can scoop up under one arm.

There is another common story where the abuser "rescues" a woman who is in an emotionally vulnerable state and giving her a "real family" is a part of that whole script, although he then gets angry when she is not pathetically grateful at every single thing. I assume that this isn't counted in your "sane, rational" statement though as somebody who is emotionally vulnerable might not be the most rational, but these rescuer-type men can be extremely convincing and appear very supportive and as though they are encouraging independence, until suddenly she starts to stand up to and be independent in relation to him as well and he doesn't like that.

In short it's not like women commonly choose to have children with abusers - they choose to have children with men they believe will make good fathers, and the abuse starts later. Sometimes it doesn't happen like this, and the abuse is already clear by the time children come along but remember that abuse being clear from outside a relationship is miles away from it being clear from inside the relationship and such men are also extremely skilled persuasionists. It actually suits them down to the ground to have their women knocked up as soon as possible, partly because it ties her to him, partly because it is a power thing, proving his masculinity, partly because everyone will congratulate him for it when he actually has to do very little work. Partly because it gives him the most valuable emotional crowbar. It works to prevent her from leaving (Guilt: The children will lose their father), to continue to abuse her after she leaves via contact with the children, and to make her look "crazy" or unreasonable to others (she never lets me see the children!).

The other point is that most first time mothers have absolutely no idea what having a child is really like. Whether they are with an abuser or not. You can't adequately explain or communicate how motherhood actually feels, affects you, changes you, and this is of course in part because it's massively different for everyone, but it's also because it's just such a huge inexplicable thing.

People think that a baby will smooth out problems in their relationship, but it actually forces ice water into those cracks and blows them apart. The relationship has to be strong in the first place and you have to both be invested in holding on across that gap for it to stay strong. People think that it will be lovely to see their partner interacting with the baby, but they don't for one second consider how devastating it is to see them not. It just doesn't cross their mind as a possibility. People think that they are independent and don't need to lean on anyone, and they might well be, but once they are completely vulnerable and dependent and then find out that they can't lean on their partner like they thought? That reality check is like a pallet of bricks to the head. People think that a baby will make their partner grow up and take responsibility, and then they understand what that responsibility is, and their partner just simply can't handle it and just doesn't. And now it's all on them.

It is so much more complicated than "any sane woman wouldn't have a baby with an abuser".

maggiethemagpie · 28/03/2016 22:07

If I knew - we rarely disagree, sorry to disappoint you.

If I say no, I usually get my own way! But that point is that I usually don't have anything to say no to, as we don't tend to hold very different viewpoints.

OK so to give you an example of where my wishes took precedence... honeymoon initially he said thailand, I said jamaica, I wanted carribean so persuaded him jamaica, wasn't very hard actually I don't think he was that fussed.

I honestly can't think of the last time we argued or disagreed over a decision, we just make our decisions together, discuss things rationally, either decide on something we both want or come to a compromise, it's really not that difficult.

OP posts:
maggiethemagpie · 28/03/2016 22:10

Bertie - we were discussing my friend with regards to the baby issue, she knows he's abusive and she's not pregnant, so would be making the choice to get pregnant knowing what he's like, I was not talking about relationships that turn abusive after pregnancy that's a different matter.

Twisting my words!!!!

OP posts:
BertieBotts · 28/03/2016 22:12

It must be extremely difficult to rationalise the treatment that your mother allowed you and your brother to endure at the hands of your stepfather, maggie. I'm not really sure that it even can be rationalised at all, actually.

While this anger is fair and justified, however, and I can totally understand why you would transfer that to a hypothetical woman who doesn't leave her partner even when he behaves abusively towards her or her children, it's really unhelpful to try to apply it to a real life situation because your anger won't help somebody to leave.

You can use your anger in constructive ways, you can support agencies like Women's Aid who help women to escape situations which are similar or you can look at relationships education programmes in schools etc, but if you're likely to be feeling the anger and frustration at somebody not acting then you are not in the right place emotionally to be supporting somebody who is not yet ready to leave. I can see where the anger and frustration is coming from but it doesn't have the required effect, it just pushes somebody closer to their abuser.

It's an extremely delicate and frustrating situation to witness really. For anyone, but much more so for somebody with a history of experiencing abuse that they practically and literally did have no power to escape. Flowers

BertieBotts · 28/03/2016 22:15

I just went off that one sentence you posted as I hadn't read every single post on the thread, just getting a gist.

The vast majority of abuse situations, the woman gets pregnant before the abuse starts. Perhaps your friend isn't in that situation but the part about not really getting what motherhood is about is still extremely relevant.

Plus perhaps she is not thinking particularly rationally at the moment - that's one of the effects that abuse will have on you.

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