Leaving an abusive relationship may be a difficult choice but it's still a choice, right?

[maggiethemagpie]

I will confess before we go any further that I have very little experience of abusive relationships. Personally - never, I am just not attracted to that kind of dynamic. I was exposed to my mum's abusive relationship with my stepfather when I was a child however. Maybe that's why I have 'never gone there' as an adult?

I have a friend who knows being with her abusive partner is the wrong thing, and says things like she hopes it will fizzle out or he'll want to spend less time with her (fat chance) but despite repeatedly trying to leave him, can't do so.

I have struggled to understand why. They are not married, or cohabiting, have no dependents, and have been together apx 18 months (they are late 30s) however she has been trying to leave him since 4 months in.

I can see that psychologically she's in some sort of trap, but surely the ultimate choice to stay or go is hers? I'm not denying that it's a difficult choice, it must be a very difficult choice but then life is full of difficult choices and these are what shape us and make us grow.

So is it a free choice to stay in these kind of relationships? Or is it a bit like addiction - where logically the right thing to do is to stop but due to the drug dependency it's not so easy?

I do have some experience with addiction so that may be an easier way to understand it. I don't subscribe to a disease model though - I still think remaining addicted to anything be it drink, substance or gambling or whatever, is still a choice although often a very difficult one.

So is remaining in an abusive relationship a choice or not?

Maybe that's the point then Bertie - I had literally no choice as a child, but I must have assumed my mother did have a choice. So as an adult I assume other adults have a choice.

To be fair, my mum did leave eventually (after around 6 or 7 years) and we went to live at my grandmas. He tried to persuade her back but she'd had enough.

Interestingly, one of my earliest memories is of standing up to my stepfather. I was around 7. He started shouting at me for spilling a drop of milk on the table. I got the whole jug and flung it in his face. I think I decided very young not to take any shit from anyone.

Bertie knows best. That was written very well.

I think that is a huge part of it maggie. I notice it in the posts of another poster as well. When you've been that child who has NO power to leave, in any sense or form, it feels extremely simplistic. Well, I couldn't leave, but she could have left. (And, clearly, also, it feels like she could have left any time because she left later.)

In reality it isn't quite as clear cut. Yes adults usually have the means to leave (although sometimes they don't) but it doesn't mean that the choice is there, because choice isn't the same thing. It's all couched in emotional stuff - it's just not as simple as saying there is nothing physically/practically preventing you from leaving so GO - but it does feel like that when you were a child who was practically and physically unable to get yourself out of that situation. And it was your mother's responsibility to do so, and she clearly did care enough about you to do it. The painful part is working out why she didn't do it earlier. Was she unable, or did she not care enough? It is kinder to assume she was unable. It might not be the case. But I think that the evidence is there that she did care about you very much, and perhaps sometimes that even makes things more difficult. Many, many women are unable to leave even though the practicalities are available to them.

Bertie

OP, you really don't understand much about how abusive relationships work.

The abuse isn't just someone doing something bad to you. It is a pattern of behaviour that wears you down, that makes you doubt and question yourself all the time, that drains all your energy, your resources (financial, social, emotional), your self-confidence.

Yes, women being abused can leave and should leave. But the abuse is designed to make them doubt both those things. If you think that you're worthless/useless/incapable of looking after yourself (because the abuser has run a long and targeted campaign to make you feel that way), or if you think that you need to protect your children and you won't be able to if you leave, or if you think that the abuser will seriously injure or kill you if you leave - then you'll probably think you can't leave. Or, if you believe that you are the awful one, that the abuser is a saint to put up with you, or that the abuser is suffering terribly and only you can help him, or that your friends and family will cut you off and never speak to you again if you leave because gosh, he's such a nice man! - then you'll probably think you shouldn't leave.

Abusers are trying to stop you leaving. They will do whatever it takes - threats, mind games, manipulation - to do that. They are usually practiced at this, and they will put all their energy behind it, and typically you won't even see it coming, even if you think you're too smart to fall for that. (Especially if you think you're too smart to fall for that.)

Leaving an abusive relationship means choosing to face down a really, really rough experience (leaving can actually be more hellish than staying, in the short term), just at a point in your life when you're doubting yourself like crazy and all your resources have gradually been chipped away.

Bertie - couldn't have put it all better.

Did you know that pregnancy is a huge triggering point.
For a lot of abuse only starts when the poor woman becomes pregnant, at this stage a woman is most venerable and unsure of herself as her body rages with hormones. She didn't choose to have a child with an abusive twat but he becomes that after the fact, lots of men are perfectly controlling themself up until this point.
There is a huge amount of research and this fact is very well documented.

A schoold friend of mine, her dm took her abusive nsdp to court. Her only witness my friend. Her evidence was disregarded because she was too young.
He got off.
The mother went back to him.
My friend went into care.

She was understandably furious with her mother and felt totally abandoned and punished for not being believed.

I was horrified.

Looking back I think her dm realised having got off he would hunt them down and in all likliehood finish what he'd started and kill them this time.

So she took the unimaginable decision to save her kids

It's not always as simple as it might appear from the outside.

(And if you think this is unlikely I know of another man who was imprisoned for an horrific attack on his wife in front of his traumatised kids). As soon as he was released he hunted her down. Again and again.

There are some unbelievable cunts out there and there isn't always a safe place.

And there are also some men as Bertie says who just seem a bit broken or to need that bit more patience or love who in fact are damaged beyond repair and damaging.

Maggie in twelve years of marriage, and in the years of our relationship before that, me and my ex never disagreed. My proud marital boast was that we had never had an argument in all that time. Red flag alert.

He bided his time.

And yes, initially I also got the Caribbean holiday I wanted - dream beach scenario - but paid for it with no further holidays for the next ten years, when later with two children in the mix I proposed a family break, he accused me of wanting to 'sit on my arse on a sun lounger for two weeks' and I would just 'leave all the childcare up to him'! - we went, but was the death knell. All for it to my face, slammed it behind my back to his family - apparently according to another toxic family member after he'd whined to them about this great first time family holiday that I must have 'planned it all along'! Way to go black hole!

So, your partner said Thailand, you said the Caribbean - you went to the Caribbean. He wasn't fussed?

My world had come crashing down in spectacular fashion before I had met my abusive-ex. I was literally shell-shocked & had the rug pulled from under my feet. In a fairy tale kind of way, I thought my ex had come to save me. Little did I know, at the time, that he was the very person I needed saving from.

Had the incident not happened before I'd met him, my judgement wouldn't have been impaired & things would have been a lot different.

And fwiw, I did not know abuse before I met him. And thought that women who put up with it, had themselves to blame.

I now know different.

Some brilliant posts from bertiebotts.

op, I came on here to tell you what an arse you are. I have barely skimmed the thread. .. It is too painful. So, I am complicit in my abuse, am I? I can't be bothered to tell you my situation, or about the efforts I was already making to leave when he hit me and the police and social services became involved. I am sick of defending myself, and had pretty much got to realising I'd done everything I could when I came across your thread. It has made me so sad - was that what you intended?

Maybe your friend is distancing herself from you because you show so little empathy for her. I know your own experience has probably damaged you. .. all the more reason you should be trying to understand the dynamics of abusive relationships.

Bertie has nailed it though. Some of us really do get stuck in these situations. The way you make it sound all our fault is horrifying.

Yes, Bertie has nailed it.

everyone

SmallLegs, very succinct compared to my essays "...who just seem a bit broken or to need that bit more patience or love who in fact are damaged beyond repair and damaging."

This is a key point. When you are in the situation of being with an abuser and you still have hope, that "just a little bit more" patience, love, tolerance seem like they are just around the corner. Always. Time doesn't seem to exist in a straight line when you're suffering abuse either, it runs in funny sort of crawl-sprint-cycle fashions, looping back on itself, the whole thing feels like a journey. When you're in any other bad situation it's fairly simple to experience a bit of a dip and think uh oh, then it gets worse and you go nope, definitely not for me and turn around and get out, but when you're in an abusive relationship it's different. You can never tell when it seems to be getting better or not and it goes back and forth and loop the loops and you can't tell which direction you're facing any more. So the temptation to think "Just a little bit more" "Just until this Christmas, let the kids have a normal Christmas" "Let's wait and see after the baby comes" and to minimise "Oh that didn't really count" "I know I said I'd leave but it wasn't really like that" "It was my fault this time, I wound him up. If I don't say that again it won't happen." and before you know it months have passed. Years. "Just a little bit" or "Oh but he seems to be trying this week, maybe this time" are false hope but they are still hope and as mentioned before, that hope is addictive.

When you lose all hope then you get out, but the damage by the time you get to that point. To lose all hope. You have usually forgotten how to feel by that point. Hope is the last one to die. Only followed by fear, unless you're really unlucky (you really don't want to lose fear.) When the fear overpowers the hope then you will act. But hope is really really powerful.

Also good posts from 53rd and Tutt on this page.

Pregnancy is a huge trigger. ..

I never completely believed that I was useless or crazy - hence my resolve to get myself and my children out of that situation despite the practical obstacles - but my husband constantly told me I was useless and crazy (even though he had married me because I was so capable).

Don't judge us. We all have different situations, different backgrounds, different lines in the sand.

One last thing from me.

I've been on here for a few years now. When I first joined, I stuck to chat. I didn't come anywhere near relationships. It was a place I didn't feel I belonged at all. I didn't really have any relationship issues. I mean we didn't always get on and there were things that frustrated me about him, but that was all.

I used to post on the general complaining about your partner threads thinking how lucky I was that my husband didn't do any of these awful things that I was reading about. In fact, I used to say as much.

And then one day I ended up on the Relationships board.

I started reading the threads, I posted offering advice and supported.

I discovered my husband's affair and kicked him out. I suddenly realised that I had no friends for support. My dad had cancer for over a decade, we had children, I hadn't really noticed...

And slowly it dawned in my with a slow horror that my husband had been manipulating me, controlling me and subtly abusing me the whole time. I didn't have a clue. Even now, I find it very difficult to work out if he is being genuinely supportive or manipulating and controlling me. Intellectually, I know that he will be supportive of me if he also benefits and he uses very subtle methods of control. I can't always see when it's happening, or if it is. And we have children so we're trying to be amicable...

It really isn't as simple as just leaving.

To be clear, I realiaed he was manipulating, abusing and controlling me once I started posting on the rs board and received advice from strangers. And to begin with, people suggested what had been happening was wrong etc but I said they had him wrong; it wasn't like that.

Except that it was. It was exactly like that. I just didn't know it.

''And the implication of that post was you'd leave regardless of your circs.
You neglected to mention that you never intend to get into a rs with dcs or a house.''

Little Legs - I never said anything of the sort for goodness sake. You seem to be very disbelieving of what I am telling you and making up scenarios for me. You don't know me and I do know myself thank you.

Yes I would leave under any circumstances if the relationship looked toxic. Yes even if I had a house together. A house together doesn't always mean financial dependency. I'd insist upon a deed of trust for the share I'd put in. I'd go through legal channels if needs be to get my half protected or go to court to force a sale to get my money back. To be honest I'd walk away with nothing if i had to as happiness is worth more than money but id certainly fight to retain my half of the money. As for kids, I can't have them so that scenario you've given me is irrelevant in my case.

I'd imagine you'll reply and give me another scenario and I'll remind you I am posting MY opinion. It doesn't mean it's wrong. I'm going to hide this thread now as I don't like how it's turning out. Opinions aren't being listened to if they dare say they'd leave before it got bad. Everyone is different and many would leave. Some have obviously found that extremely difficult to do or still want to do it. I wish them luck and my thoughts are with them.

Growing up my mum repeatedly told me to have a separate "secret" bank account that my partner will not know about. Since I got my first job I have been putting money away in this account monthly, usually about £30 to £200 every month depending on what I have to spare. This is besides the joint account I have with DH and other accounts. If I ever need to leave my marriage for any reason I know I have enough money saved to start over. I am teaching my kids to do the same.

The thing is with abuse, it starts like a dripping tap.

You meet a great partner, who seemingly cannot do enough for you. They're complimentary, helpful, very giving in bed, generous, kind, everything you'd expect a good man to be.

Then one day, sometimes months or even years in, they insult you. Nothing massive at first, maybe they tell you your dress is too tight. You put it down to them having a bad day. They're normally so lovely. Nothing else happens for a week or two. Then they have a tantrum about something you haven't done right. Again you decide they're having a bad day.

Their bad days increase, slowly, but on their good days, they are still a shining example of the perfect man. You start to wonder where the man you met is. What went wrong?

When their bad days outnumber the good, you consider leaving, suddenly this wonderful man you met and fell and in love with is back and better than ever before, laying on compliments, helping you, whisking you away on holiday etc.
You decide to stay. They start having bad days again. Is it you? Are you doing something to upset them? They're still wonderful to everyone else.

While all of this is going on, they slowly erode your confidence and power. Maybe they 'help' you put the kids to bed, after all the kids listen to him, not you. How would you ever cope without him? Isn't he so wonderful helping you? Maybe he takes control of the finances, to help you save for X, we all know how silly you can be with money. Silly you, but no matter, look how great he is helping you.

Sally calls, you can't go out today. You've made plans/he is ill/your clothes don't fit/you've no money. He never stops you going. He would never ask you to stop your friendships, but something always seems to come up. Illness, he'll question whether you really want to wear that, you go but you feel like shit all night, next time Sally calls, you're not too keen on going out. Sally stops calling, sick of being turned down by you or having you feeling down all night because you think you look like shit.

Slowly you realise you're alone. You've no friends, you have to ask for permission to spend your own money. You're a shit parent, your kids don't listen to you. He's having bad days every day now, but how can you leave? Sally won't support you, she stopped calling months ago. How will you get the money together? How will you cope with the kids without him? Is it really better to leave?

And then all of a sudden -wham - he's back, that lovely man you fell in love with. You stay. You tell yourself it's not that bad. At least he doesn't do X. Once he does X, you'll leave.

He does X. He's sorry. There's that man again, the one you loved. X becomes Y. He does Y. Y doesn't seem that bad anymore. You're so beaten down, the abuse is so ingrained, you cannot tell what is abuse and what is normal anymore. You should leave. Is leaving really better? How will you run your own finances? Parent alone? By this time you genuinely believe you are no good at those things.

Oh look, there's that lovely man again, surprising you with flowers.

I've done a lot of psychodynamic therapy Yeah, it shows. Unfortunately a fair few psychodymanic practitioners and practices seem to attract people who like a judgey dynamic, even if they won't admit it to themselves.

Entirely agree itwillwash. That's how it happened for me.

Add to that, you actually try to leave and you get apologies, tears, presents, suicide threats, begging you to stay. You give in. It happens again. This time you are definitely ending it, you feel stronger. Then there are insults, threats, arguments over money/kids, anything to make life difficult for you. You have to be very strong and sorted and supported to leave when you are in fear.

I could only see it clearly after I joined MN. I left my last relationship with live support on a thread I started on here. I don't know if I would/could have otherwise.

I wasn't on MN when I was trapped in that cycle. It took him kicking off at my workplace and starting on the kids in front of my colleagues for me to see it was abuse. All of it. It wasn't me. I wasn't imagining it. I wasn't the cause the of it. It wouldn't change if only I did X or stopped doing Y. That man I met and fell in love with never existed. He was a facade, put on by my abuser to trap me.

When he kicked off at work, my boss pulled me aside and told me it wasn't right. He told me he knew it was bad, but not that bad. He's guessed from small things I'd said that I was with an absolute arsehole, but he hadn't realised he was that bad.

If he came into my workplace and spoke to me or my children that way again, my boss would contact SS and the police. He helped me leave.

It took someone in RL to see him for what he was for me to be able to see clearly. To actually see it without me saying it. When I would tell people, the few people I had left around me, they'd all nod and agree I needed to leave but I'd question whether I was being completely honest with them or whether I was exaggerating things and minimising my part in it all, I played a part after all. I spent all our money so we couldn't go on our dream holiday, that was my fault. I was lazy. I was a bad parent. I wasn't very clever and definitely not very attractive, I didn't put as much effort into myself as I used to. If I changed all of that, for him, for me, for my kids, to make me a better person, things would be okay. He'd be that lovely man again. That's what he told me. That's what I believed.

That's what he still tells people. I don't believe him anymore. Some people do, but not people who've seen him, I mean really seen him for what he is. There aren't many of those people, he's too clever for that, but sometimes, he lets his mask slip just enough for people to spot him.

salt you said you couldn't imagine why someone wouldn't leave the first time.
I gave you a scenario where they might stay. Obviously that scenario might not precisely match your circumstances. You are the one who mentioned financial dependence not me. The house was relevant in the scenario because the partner who keeps the family home has a strong case for custody of the (imaginary) kids.

I get that some people just cannot imagine why people stay but unless they have been there they cannot really say what they would do in those circumstances.

why isn't she coming to your wedding? She can come alone

Shows the complete lack of understanding about abuse

If I knew then - he really wasn't fussed about where we went on honeymoon. He doesn't have to have his way. Neither do I.. if he'd really really wanted to go to Thailand more than Carribean I would have gone with his idea.

You same unable to understand that we discuss things rationally, don't use manipulation or games to get our own way, either decide to do what the other wants (depending on who wants it more), compromise or do our own thing. You know, like a harmonious relationship should be?

My partner is the least manipulative person you could meet, I'm actually LMAO at the notion that he is secretly manipulating me without my knowledge.

And when I take his needs into consideration this is due to consideration on my part, as I could be more bossy than I am but try not to be.... not manipulation on his part!

I don't think a manipulative partner would last very long with me... I'd see through it and kick back.