Leaving an abusive relationship may be a difficult choice but it's still a choice, right?

[maggiethemagpie]

I will confess before we go any further that I have very little experience of abusive relationships. Personally - never, I am just not attracted to that kind of dynamic. I was exposed to my mum's abusive relationship with my stepfather when I was a child however. Maybe that's why I have 'never gone there' as an adult?

I have a friend who knows being with her abusive partner is the wrong thing, and says things like she hopes it will fizzle out or he'll want to spend less time with her (fat chance) but despite repeatedly trying to leave him, can't do so.

I have struggled to understand why. They are not married, or cohabiting, have no dependents, and have been together apx 18 months (they are late 30s) however she has been trying to leave him since 4 months in.

I can see that psychologically she's in some sort of trap, but surely the ultimate choice to stay or go is hers? I'm not denying that it's a difficult choice, it must be a very difficult choice but then life is full of difficult choices and these are what shape us and make us grow.

So is it a free choice to stay in these kind of relationships? Or is it a bit like addiction - where logically the right thing to do is to stop but due to the drug dependency it's not so easy?

I do have some experience with addiction so that may be an easier way to understand it. I don't subscribe to a disease model though - I still think remaining addicted to anything be it drink, substance or gambling or whatever, is still a choice although often a very difficult one.

So is remaining in an abusive relationship a choice or not?

Actually I think the low sense of worth idea is sometimes (not always) wrong. I was in an abusive relationship for 13 years, finally divorcing after 16 years. My problem was too much pride. I hated the thought that people would look at me with pity or see what a bad choice I'd made. I actually worked my way up in my career during our marriage to the point that I was earning almost double what he was by the time we separated. So a low sense of worth wasn't it. I think it was (and even now, if I am honest, I don't know why I stayed) but I think it was that, because I did have the enormous paranoia that people would somehow look at me as a failure or with pity, I got sucked into believing the 'it won't happen again' promises.

Until I finally realised that my sense of pride was going to literally be the death of me. Then I left and, guess what, not one person - not one - has ever pitied me (well not to my face - what they say behind my back if anything doesn't worry me), no one has ever seen me as a failure. If anything the fact that I got out, brushed myself down, got a promotion, studied at the OU and got promoted again, bought my own flat and led my own life got me a few verbal pats on the back.

So what causes people to stay in relationships? I have absolutely no idea! What I do know is that, now I am with DH and have DS with him, I stand up for myself more (or maybe it's just that DH is a straight down the line sort of bloke - doesn't get peaks and troughs like my ex did so my 'standing up' for myself would just be the normal type of relationship most people have!)

Yes , just because he means it at the time doesn't make it the truth hedgehog.

It'll never happen again

If that was true, the abuse wouldn't happen again
If that was not true, the abuse would continue

Did the abuse continue? Then it wasn't the truth, was it.

Fauch "As I'm telling one friend atm - millions of better men out there, just one you"

have you considered telling her that many many women are happy without a man?

lorelei good point and one i wholeheartedly agree with. I do tell her that also! it was more in response to her staying with this shit guy because she worries no one else would want her. The main point is there is just one of her, one life and he's wearing her down when she could be having millions of better opportunities and life options and emotions. I guess I should say that rather than implying she needs a partner

I agree with you Magpie, that listening to someone moaning on about their relationship is tiring. It's crap, as a friend to hear another friend moaning on and on and on. I rarely speak to my friends about my relationship. Perhaps it's pride. Only very recently have I started to comment on what is going on. Perhaps it is the fear of not knowing what to do next. I don't know what is going to happen next. It's not a very easy position to hold. It is frightening.

There's an odd definition of "victim" in use on this thread. It doesn't mean "helpless, hopeless". It simply means someone against/to whom a crime has been committed.

You can understand the theory of a situation and see it happening to a person without ever having the first clue what it feels like to be inside it. I think that's what's missing from OP's posts.

An analogy might be ... two people are playing Monopoly together. One does a DM sad face every time the other thinks about buying something, so after a few hours SadFace owns nearly all the properties, and starts putting houses and hotels on them. OtherPlayer can't do that, because she doesn't have enough money, because she keeps having to pay rent on SadFace's properties every time she throws the dice. SadFace goes for a wee, and someone else wanders in.

"Bloody hell, you're losing so badly! Why are you still playing?"

"No, it's fine, I've just been unlucky. I'm still enjoying the game."

SadFace comes back from the loo, and the observer leaves.

"Did Observer say I was cheating? That's so unfair! ... I'm sure I had a house on Leicester Square - did you take it off?"

"Did you? I don't -"

"I'm going to put it back. And it's my go."

"Is it? Ok ..."

And on and on. But eventually she starts to lose interest.

"SadFace, I'm going to call it a night."

"What? But we're still playing. Come on, you'll get a Community Chest card if you throw seven next go. Come on, you promised. I even let you be the top hat."

OtherPlayer has agreed to play and hasn't got any other way to pass the time this evening.

The following morning, OtherPlayer looks back and wonders when SadFace turned into a total wanker. She likes Monopoly, doesn't she? So why didn't she enjoy playing last night?

Some of you are just so naive , Maggie I don't think u will ever understand until u go through it, which I hope to god u never do. You think your above people with your analalagies of this. I think some people are desperate to be in s relationship because they do not want to be on their own or are vulnerable in some way, but there are so many strong confident independent women that end up in this scenario, there is more to it than being 'wired a certain way' crap! What a load of tosh!!!

maggiethemagpie

I've NC for this.

I was a happy, confident and independent woman who met, married and had children with a misogynistic malignant covert narcissist. On reflection, the abuse and control began early in the relationship (testing) and stepped up when our first child was born. Oh so easy to put it down to many things, work, babies, tiredness, stress at the time, and he always played the victim who just couldn't understand HIS own unhappiness. I loved him beyond reason and went to the ends of the earth to make him happy. It was all a script. It was all a lie.

He never laid a finger on me but twelve years later I was ruined, psychologically, emotionally, financially, socially, and yes the abuse continues (via e-mails) even though I have not physically seen or spoken face to face with him in four years - and he abuses our children instead when they have the 50/50 contact a nice Judge granted in the face of evidence that he harms them emotionally and psychologically.

I left when I finally discovered the truth was less he didn't know why things were so bad and more that he was actively destroying me behind my back. I had no qualms about or feelings of shame at being a single parent - at least that was one less hurdle to overcome. I have faced homelessness, poverty, mental health issues and physical illness, all because I loved and adored another human being. I will be scarred and traumatised for the remainder of my life. I still wouldn't blame any person for not leaving, they steal your soul.

You said:

My relationship with my partner is very anti-control on both sides. Neither of us tells the other what to do, sometimes that means we do our own thing. I may wear the trousers sometimes in terms of decision making but I always try and take what he wants into consideration, if he doesn't agree with a decision we won't do it although he's quite passive and usually lets me decide what to do

I could have written that about my marriage.

lorelei honestly, I do get where you're coming from too and again I've been there. It's such a difficult situation.

I don't have any definitive answers but I think the framework of this discussion is all WRONG.

We need to change the discussion from why doesn't the abused person just leave (which unfairly places all the responsibility on them) to why does the perpetrator think it's ok and why do we let them get away with it? We don't blame victims of grooming - it's really an extension of that.

Sorry, not sure where the random caps came from there, not meaning to shout!

I'm 25 and was in an abusive relationship for 2 years. It took a long time for me to leave, I wanted to for a long time, rather than thinking of a future with him, I remember always thinking to myself 'one day I'll be out of this and with someone who doesn't do these things'
But like some people have said, it isn't as easy as just having a choice. Abusive people are manipulative, they get inside your head. Despite how they treat you, you hold onto the parts of them that you fell for, hoping that it will return to being like that. I personally felt like it was my fault, like I provoked it or deserved it, which of course wasn't true at all, nobody deserves it.
I was also terrified, when you leave someone like that it's not just 'leaving', it's dealing with their actions afterwards. I received over 100 abusive emails, death threats, wishing my future baby dead, along with the violence that ensued when I tried to collect my things. It was horrific, and if my friend hadn't been waiting outside in her car who knows what would have happened.
Sometimes it's 'safer' in the mind of someone being abused, to just stay and put up with it, hoping that it will change.

The most important thing is to tell somebody in confidence, if I hadn't have done that I'd probably still be there, or not here at all for that matter

If I knew, are you saying I am abusive to my partner??? Because he allows me to make some decisions in the relationship? (usually due to laziness on his part)

Er, you're barking up the wrong tree there!

Are u getting it yet Maggie , look how many people have been through this shit! No there isn't a 'choice' as u put it!!!!

Well if there is no choice how come many thousands of women across the globe leave relationships like that every year?

And I bet they wish they'd done it sooner too.

As I've said repeatedly I'm not disputing that it's a difficult choice. But we all have to make difficult choices in life and if I did ever find myself in an abusive relationship I hope I would be able to make that very difficult choice to walk away before too long.

Continue to believe in the no choice thing if you want to - it makes it easier to justify staying, I'm sure.

Thatslife "You think your above people with your analalagies of this. "

I'm sure Maggie will answer that herself. But I've had it directed at me when I've raised this subject in real life. So may I just say..

no, I don't think I'm above anyone. I think that people who stay are NOT wired like me - endlessly suspicious, essentially believing that human beings aren't that nice and that they are better off with fewer of them in their lives. I think fundamentally to stay you have to hope things are going to improve don't you? (again, talking about cases like the OP mentioned, not cases of financial dependence, children, violence etc which make things very different).

Flipping "We need to change the discussion from why doesn't the abused person just leave (which unfairly places all the responsibility on them) to why does the perpetrator think it's ok and why do we let them get away with it?"

the second part of your question is what OP is asking isn't it? Also, victims of "grooming" - they are children, it's completely different.

as for "why does the perpetrator think it's okay" - many people do all sorts of shit to see if they can get away with it. Some people are just horrible - many in fact.

Maggie No, I am not saying you are abusive, quite the opposite!

My husband was so laid back (read laziness, passive, passive-aggressive) that every time I asked for his input on decisions, he was quite happy for me to choose. Therefore if things went wrong he couldn't ever be blamed because it was my decision after all. No responsibility for anything was his MO.

You also said that (paraphrasing) if he does not want to do something then you do not do it - another reflective red flag from my marriage.

I left my rs before he hit me. I wpuld habe left the second he did and I'd have had him arrested. He knew it so he never hit me. If he had who knows I might have left sooner.
But that doesn't mean it is easy.
And I am not going to judge anyone else for staying for more or less shit than I did

And as for saying you'd leave your house, sleep rough, leave yourself in debt and risk losing custody of your kids because someone once called you a name salt, really? Well it's principled but I am not sure it's wise. Surely you'd stay long enough to sort out the finances, find somewhere for your kids to sleep etc.

What about if your kids were right in the middle of their A levels. You'd still do it?

The point I am making is there can be lots of reasons why for the short term at least, staying can seem easier than going.

Often they don't do it till after there are kids.
Abuse is about an imbalance of power. That imbalance reduces choices.

As for your friend OP. I don't know why she doesn't leave but I am sure she will eventually. She will probably find it easier if she has friends by whom she does not feel judged (that kind of thing drives you back to your abuser.)

And if you don't like the word victim, say survivor.

But what I object to, what I really object to is the use of the word participant.

Indeed ifIKnew mine also did both of those.

Sometimes when you habe kids laid back quickly turns into bone idle, indecisiveand incapable.

OP has given this specific example "They are not married, or cohabiting, have no dependents, and have been together apx 18 months (they are late 30s) however she has been trying to leave him since 4 months in."

so why do people keep talking about £, children etc?

It's not really so different lorelei. Adults can be victims of grooming as well as children.

I think you've misunderstood what I was saying (or maybe I didn't explain it very well - entirely possible). On an individual level we're responsible for ourselves of course but on a societal level we (general we) tend to ask "why is she putting up with it" rather than "how dare the abuser do that". It feeds into that narrative that women are responsible for managing relationships/male behaviour.

SmallLegs "And as for saying you'd leave your house, sleep rough, leave yourself in debt and risk losing custody of your kids because someone once called you a name salt, really? Well it's principled but I am not sure it's wise. Surely you'd stay long enough to sort out the finances, find somewhere for your kids to sleep etc. "

not the question that was asked!

Lorel so your suspicious of everyone then? Very unhealthy also I would say! These guys are not like that at first u are not suspicious because there is nothing to be suspicious of, they start to turn later on when it is much much harder to leave , impossible for some! It's nothing to do with 'the way u are wired' ffs!!!!

flipping - again, looking at the OP example, I am not dividing this by men/women.

to that end, I don't really think it's a mystery why society asks why a woman like the OP used an example is putting up with it. Perhaps the thread sums it up - it gets conflated with stuff that has no bearing at all on what the OP said. Plenty of men do what the OP friend is doing.

Adults being "groomed" - could you give me an example?

btw I'm going to the pub now so I haven't forgotten you all

Thatslife "Lorel so your suspicious of everyone then? Very unhealthy also I would say! "

I fucking love it

Like I say - look at StillAwake's post - that IS the alarm bells and red flag and run away in the first few sentences. Who's on the phone? None of your business. We go out every Saturday? Er, no, dude, I have a life!

But it's not always like that , it's not obvious this is what your not getting!!!! Some ignore red flags, some don't give any flippin red flags!!!