Leaving an abusive relationship may be a difficult choice but it's still a choice, right?

[maggiethemagpie]

I will confess before we go any further that I have very little experience of abusive relationships. Personally - never, I am just not attracted to that kind of dynamic. I was exposed to my mum's abusive relationship with my stepfather when I was a child however. Maybe that's why I have 'never gone there' as an adult?

I have a friend who knows being with her abusive partner is the wrong thing, and says things like she hopes it will fizzle out or he'll want to spend less time with her (fat chance) but despite repeatedly trying to leave him, can't do so.

I have struggled to understand why. They are not married, or cohabiting, have no dependents, and have been together apx 18 months (they are late 30s) however she has been trying to leave him since 4 months in.

I can see that psychologically she's in some sort of trap, but surely the ultimate choice to stay or go is hers? I'm not denying that it's a difficult choice, it must be a very difficult choice but then life is full of difficult choices and these are what shape us and make us grow.

So is it a free choice to stay in these kind of relationships? Or is it a bit like addiction - where logically the right thing to do is to stop but due to the drug dependency it's not so easy?

I do have some experience with addiction so that may be an easier way to understand it. I don't subscribe to a disease model though - I still think remaining addicted to anything be it drink, substance or gambling or whatever, is still a choice although often a very difficult one.

So is remaining in an abusive relationship a choice or not?

No it's not Magpie. My mother has been married to my father for over 50 years in a profoundly dysfunctional abusive relationship. Dementia has been her escape. Finding myself in a very different though still abusive relationship, I can understand why she stayed, although I longed for her to leave. If there is lack of family support, intense lonliness in the relationship, shame, difficulty in articulating the unhappiness, moments remaining of joy, vulnerability on both sides.... It can mean being cast out of your family, financial disaster, loss of friends. Without MN I would not have recognised my husband's behaviour as abusive. The users of this website are not in the majority I don't think. It is devastating to admit to oneself that abuse is the problem, name it, and take action. You also mention that your friend is in her late 30s. If she wants children, she may be putting up with far more than is reasonable. It is not straightforward.

Lorelei proves my point, she is able to take responsibility early on for getting out of the relationship, because she just won't accept that crap.

I can understand it may be hard for some people on here to see that they have not been able, for whatever reason, to get out of the way,

Hence they are so upset about the victim blaming thing, they dont' want to see that they could have taken a different action.

they are called fairytales for a reason!

Yes - and they also endure for a reason. I'm not for one second suggesting anyone can change an abusive partner through the power of love, just that the myth is pervasive.

Maggie "I'm actually on a bit of a break from her"

I don't blame you. It's actually impossible for me to stay friends with anyone who keeps going back for shit treatment. I told one friend that once and so did a bunch of others....interestingly I think it led to him having the guts to stop going back to her. He had her and he didn't have any friends and luckily he realised it was not worth it.

Infatuation of some kind? A poster on the first page mentions having seen the signs really early but carrying on anyway?

Hedgehog, if you continually believe someone who lies over and over again when they say it will happen again, then you are not being truthful with yourself.

I just want to say, a friend of mine kept saying why the hell do u keep going back, your leading him on, your stupid , your this and that. 4 years later and she's doing exactly the same thing in a relationship, keeps going back for more!

None of u know how u would react in this situation u are no longer the person u once was!

I meant will NOT happen again!

Maggie "Lorelei proves my point, she is able to take responsibility early on for getting out of the relationship, because she just won't accept that crap."

The volume of crap in the first few lines of StillAwake's post is really something, I'm still quite at it being used as an example of "early" manipulation and how it can be seen in any way as the man being kind!

PS StillAwake, I don't mean your post is crap, I mean the exchange you describe is just a massive set of alarm bells and red lights right off the bat.

Anyone who thinks there is choice involved should read Rachel Pain's work on domestic terrorism, to understand why women don't leave and the massive risks in doing so.

I can completely understand the frustration with your friend. I have been there myself. But shaming people who are being abused is not going to have the effect you want - they will just feel more isolated.

Also, even normal, well adjusted women get tied up in abusive relationships. There is nothing to link the abuse to. It takes a long time and great determination to undo this kind of thing. It is not a choice. It is a lack of recognition, a lack of confidence and certainly a lack of support. WA does a tremendous job as do the refuges. To let go of an abusive relationship is life-changing. Understanding the dynamics so it doesn't happen again, is life-changing. For some people, this is simply not possible, or needs time and therapy. Not marriage guidance, but more specialist.

So easy to eat, why is it lorelei and some women are able to say no to these kind of relationships but not other women?

It must be due to deep rooted psychological issues, my therapist talks about how we manifest our deepest fears from childhood (eg I am unlovable, I am unworthy, I am incompetent) god knows I manifested quite a few of my own in my life but they never played out in abusive relationships, although I had my fair share of other isseus.

flippin "I can completely understand the frustration with your friend. I have been there myself. But shaming people who are being abused is not going to have the effect you want - they will just feel more isolated"

there's that. But then they swing between you and the partner - using you every time they "leave" the partner" - and I won't be used like that. It's often the case that when you need that friend for something they're too busy pandering to the partner. So crap relationships all round. I've no time for abusive men or abusive friends - and just using you when they need to moan and never doing anything for you is just using you.

Maggie, why isn't she coming to your wedding? She can come alone.

My friend has let me down more than once because of him. Invited me to go to a festival with them last summer, then abandoned me all weekend because HE was jealous. (we do not live close by so I only see her every few months or so)

Then the wedding thing. Came up with a crap excuse why she couldn't come to my wedding, when I know its probably because he doesn't want her to go.

That's the one thing she could have done for me.

Why should I put up with crap like that.

Lorelei, I don't really know the real reason.

It could be because she senses I have lost a lot of respect for her due to her continually moaning about him to me/ using me when she leaves him then going back two days later. (I have lost respect for her but it's not enough to break the friendship)

It could be because she's got back with him and doesn't want to tell me because she knows I will not understand.

It could be because she knows he won't like it if she goes, so she'll upset me to avoid upsetting him.

It could be because after abandoning me at the festival because HE needed her, I made friends with all her friends who are now hacked off with her for whinging about him all the time, and she's jealous that I poached her friends (who are coming to the wedding btw)

Either way, I invited her and she made some lame excuses but said she'd try to come, then hasn't spoken to me for weeks and hasn't officially RSVPd.

That's a good and genuine question and I feel my situation is different and a lot less bad because it wasn't years and years. Why didn't I leave earlier, in my case it was emotional abuse and eventual sexual assault, no violence - bearing in mind I had MH problems to start with. On top of this he convinced me that I was a sociopathic manipulator, a liar, all these things I now know HE was. And I did bring it up a lot of the time how horrible he treated me and I was very contrite, he's dreadful terrible but he's never found someone like me and he's learning so much and values me so much but he just doesn't know how to handle it. And I'd reply with things like how it's horseshit and I don't exist to help him grow but you get dragged into it via the manipulation and it suddenly changes to how you're the awful person again, how everyone thinks i'm a slut and bad for him and he should stay away, how i'm terrible.
I'm a smart girl and I've cut many a toxic friend out of my life but sociopaths, manipulators, abusers - they do a number on you and you really believe that not doing things for them, not being who they tell you to be makes you a sociopath. Even now, I'm in a healthy relationship but I worry I'm abusive and sociopathic. His mindset was that I existed for his gratification if that makes sense, I can't explain it but if you know about manipulators it'll be a bit clearer. It was like I wasn't human but his gratification toy and it just wears you down to a shell of who you are - and that person who is strong willed and always saying "i have a friend who is toxic and i just get them out my life" i was suddenly second guessing everything becausr ah it's so hard to explain how abusive types just change your thinking? There's toxic people who are bad for you but they just do your head in but then there's toxic abusers who can control really easily.

Anyway then after being sexually assaulted by him I also blamed myself and felt I had no right to refuse him sex. I told a handful of people about how it really was and their implications were negative, idk like I was either lying or it wasn't that bad.

I guess you could say that's not having the strength, but when I finally got help and exited I was as I said severely anorexic again so it wasn't that I was stronger (although I am now, as will all people be when they are rid of the cunts) it was just that I knew he could be kept away from me.

Then its the whole after period - i lost all my friends from that period of my life either from them believing his lies about me (power of a manipulator) or not wanting to be around them as i just assume they believe him. There's places I no longer go and stuff and you just never really feel fully free of that hold.

It feels like anorexia to me, no one understands why my illness has such a hold on me, recovery is a scary and anxiety filled journey and you never truly feel free. It feels like that to me.

As I say I never went through anything as gruelling as some MNers. Some abusers threaten violence, death all sorts if you leave. There's financial control, threats, gaslighting...and sadly a person who is abused is most vulnerable in the first steps of exiting I think?? There's so many ways of abuse and it's insidious. Fundamentally it's a web of lies and for a lot of abusers its easy to get caught up in that shit not because of who you are and your character but there's

Victims aren't "victims" in that they're helpless waifs that need a kick up the arse, in the same way your girl friend with a lazy dh needs a kick up the arse. It's an impossibly shit situation and you can never really know nor see the hold abusers have but when you get out of that situation it's so freeing and empowering - once you're removed enough to see it.

And sorry to any MNers i really feel unqualified to speak on this as my situation was so minimal. But that's my experience, it's a billion times trickier for others.

Sorry that is so long as well it's the first time I've ever talked about it and thought about it outside my own head.

But no for me it wasn't oh i know he's a cunt and i can change him, i got sucked in and i could write down and tell him all the horrid things he would do to me, himself and other people but you just get so sucked into their shit and without noticing you're giving so much of yourself for them to "grow" only for them not to grow at all

Hedgehog, if you continually believe someone who lies over and over again when they say it will happen again, then you are not being truthful with yourself.

But it's not lies, that's the point. It's the truth. They are telling you the truth.

Sorry you had to go through that experience FAuchevlant, glad you made it out x

Maggie "Why should I put up with crap like that."

well you won't find my advice surprising - don't.

I probably bored everyone to tears with this but I found out some interesting stuff about real friends during a severe illness. Only one of them turned out NOT to be a real friend, but she's the kind of woman who would be entirely understanding of shit like what your friend is doing now.

sadly some people do think a relationship is the be all and end all, think a bad one is better than no relationship, look down on singletons (there's a thread going on about that at the mo).

It's hardly the truth if they do it again though is it. They'd LIKE it to be the truth, I'll give you that. But if you're going to make a promise to someone, you kind of have to keep it or you lose credibility.

hedgehog "But it's not lies, that's the point. It's the truth. They are telling you the truth."

yes, the same "truth" my druggie mates at uni told me when they stole from me. I know they believe what they are saying, but that doesn't mean I should.

Maybe some of us just wired to be more suspicious, I don't believe in second chances but the older I get, the gladder I am of that.

I did :) now i'm with a lovely DP who says craaaazy things like "i'm so lucky" without there being a catch, and the only time it feels bad is when he's lying next to me snoring like a foghorn.

Like I said, you sound like a caring friend and I see a lot of my friends in you, and I know when my friends are in destructive situations I get to a point where I'm like "for my sanity I can't help you any more".

She'll get there I think. I really hope she does. She deserves so much better and there is so much better out there. As I'm telling one friend atm - millions of better men out there, just one you.