Seriously thinking about NC with DH's side of the family

[Gobbolinothewitchscat]

This is going to be long but think I need to post the background

I've posted previously about SIL's wedding. I have 3 DCs - age 3, 2 and 13 weeks. The oldest have just turned 3 and 2 respectively so still small.

SIL is getting married about 150 miles away on a week day. We have been told no DCs at the wedding. Mil has a difficult family background and her half-brothers children will be going however - albeit they are older than ours. I susir t ultimately that SIL will also permit her friends to bring small babies. I understand that it is SIL's wedding but I find it pretty hurtful that our children (who are actually her closest relatives) are to be excluded.

My parents are extremely supportive of us and will normally drop anything to help us out. Mil has form for being very difficult and has been very unhelpful at difficult times - eg looked after putt DS on the day of my grandmother's funeral (250 miles away) but refused to rearrange plans so I had to get out cleaner to come and look after DS (then 1 year old) as she had to leave at 5pm. The whole thing was horribly stressful and I still find it very upsetting to think about.

My parents normally drop everything to help us but normally go on holiday with friends around the date of SIL's wedding. They therefore told me immediately that they may be able to look after our DCs but that - in this instance - they actually won't cancel their holiday if the group of friends can only manage that date (they are all retired so tend to go quite last minute to get the best deal) and we should therefore get a plan B. I immediately highlighted this to DH and his response was - (massively fucking entitled) oh it's my sister's wedding. Surely they won't go away. I said they very well could and he should highlight this to his family now as we may not have any childcare and ultimately I wouldn't be able to go. Plus, I could very well still be feeding youngest DC. Really the only option would be to take someone to look after the DCs on site and I didn't even know if that would be feasible. But I was highlighting it now so that there were no amateur dramatics near the wedding if I couldn't go

Communication within DH's family is pretty piss poor so nothing was done.

At the weekend, SIL, MIL and FIL came ti visit and stay the night. SIL said something in passing about my parents looking after the DC and I said that actually they maybe away and there wasn't really a plan B. I said that I could perhaps ask my DS's key worker from nursery to travel to the wedding and look after the DCs but we would need to get him accommodation. And, in any event, I was uncomfortable about being away from my youngest DC even if I could get someone look after all DC at our house.

SIL told me that there were no rooms left at the hotel but if I got the key worker, he could perhaps stay at a local B&B. That she was having to lay £150 a head per guest and she wanted me to be able to relax and enjoy myself and also keep costs down - hence why our DCs weren't invited. I said that the best solution maybe to ask the key worker. And, if I did, would SIL like the DCs to be brought to the church (waiting outside during the ceremony) for a few photos as they would be in the area. Totally up to her obviously but thought she might like it. She said yes, but she was banning children from the church. I said I quite understood as FIL's brother's children had made a terrible racket during ours in the church (MIL insisted they were invited) and you could even hear the noise on the wedding video. MIL said she couldn't remember that but I said (nicely) that it was on the video. I also said that if my parents were looking after the DCs, they had also offered to bring them to the church (to wait outside) and take them home (a big thing as a huge drive) after if she wanted photos.

So - it was all perfectly pleasant and I thought the childcare issue was clear. More importantly, there was actually communication like normal people. DH then went to work in the morning and the DCs and I went out with SIL and the PILs for brunch - all perfectly pleasant. Nothing else said. I was slightly nervous about going out as the PILs had been invited to visit DC3 a few days after she was born and had been very late (with no communication). I was upstairs feeding the baby and DH had said something to MIL about it. She had started shouting and bawling at DH saying it was my fault and I was manipulating them and being very rude about me. I decided the best thing to do was pretend I hadn't heard and gloss over things. But, again, everything perfectly pleasant at brunch

DH then arrives home and asks me what I had been saying to his sister? I explained the position about childcare and said that I had highlighted this to him already but his approach seemed to have been that my parents would have to just cancel their holiday. That wasn't very constructive so I had highlighted things to SIL so she could make ab informed choice about allowing the DCs to attend in the vicinity and be looked after off site (pretty pissing annoying that DH could have mentioned it earlier so we could have got a room for them and carers at the hotel but now we couldn't) as ultimately if we couldn't get appropriate childcare, I wouldn't be able to go and with a wedding of 60 people, that would be noticeable.

DH then says that obviously I had a chip on my shoulder about FIL's neice making a racket during our wedding and that my parents were manipulating things by refusing to cancel their holiday (the irony after my grandmother's funeral and various other times that they have dropped everything and driven 300 miles to help us out after the PILs have let us down!). I susir t he had spoken to MIL on the way home.

I am absolutely fed up with this. I am fed up of rather than everyone talking civilly about things (as I tried to do) and resolve problems in good time, MIL then approaches DH behind my back. If she or SIL had a problem, why not discuss it with me at the time or the next day? I am fed up (and I think this is the crux of it) if DH not simply explaining that all I am trying to do is sort out childcare for the DCs (as basically he seems to have opted out of it and my parents - his indentured servants obviously - are to drop everything AGAIN to help out). Why is DH not able to actually support me (his wife) and make it clear - politely - to his family that if you have your wedding hundreds of miles away and don't invite your very young nieces and nephews, then yes, childcare will be an issue and that is not bring "difficult". It's a matter of fact. And, actually, if your "keeping costs down" banning your brothers children whilst letting others attend is actually pretty fucking hurtful

I actually don't know what to do. I've said tinDH that I think that actually everyone should just be honest and communicate clearly with each other now. So if he thinks my patents are "selfish"
and "manipulative" (the breath taking cheek!) he should say to their faces. Further, I will contact SIL and MIL and ask them if they need me to clarify anything about what we discussed. Further, another option is for me to not attend and look after the DCs which I think maybe the best option all round

I'm actually so so sick of this. I don't want to see the PILs again and I don't particularly want to see SIL again.

Should I contact them? Should I just decline the wedding invitation? I want to make it clear why

I also need to sort out the DH issue too

I would be bloody worried if I were the groom of this upcoming wedding, but there will be fewer expectations on him because he's a guy)

It's interesting. Future BIL is like a large golden retriever. Very eager to please. Plus, SIL earns significantly more than him so essentially wears the pants in that relationship

They had all spent the day together on Saturday and when they arrived, BIL was clearly frazzled and quite snippy. It's the first time I've ever seen him like that

I think low contact is the way to go

I stepped back up this weekend after the complete fuck up at Christmas between DH and MIL not getting the texts etc. When they turned up they were clearly furious at me.

I feel like I can't win. If I don't go to the wedding, the narrative will be "The time Gobbo ruined the wedding by refusing to come as her DC weren't invited". They are actually truly divorced from reality

Yes, they probably will try and claim you've ruined the wedding, but that is a harder myth to sustain if all they've got on you is the fact you declined the invitation with plenty of notice and before they'd committed to final numbers with the caterer. If you try to have a row with them and actually 'sort this out' right now, that definitely will be pinned on you causing trouble/trying to steal focus from the bride.

Low contact will be less stressful than no contact. However, in the case of the wedding you can't attend so that's that.

I think low contact is the way to go. As for the wedding, take a leaf from dhs book. Path of least resistance don't work too hard or you will resent it. Let mil and sil know that you may not manage given the childcare problems but if your parents don't go away you'd love to come. Unfortunately given the circumstances you can't give a clearer answer than that at the moment. If the venue can't be flexible and hold the place open for you, you completely understand.

Do not forget that low contact often leads to no contact; that option is always available to you. Self preservation is necessary.

Unfortunately you can never ever apply normal social mores or rules to people like his parents; they are not built that way and will not accept any rules other than their own. In point of fact the rule book goes out the window when it comes to such dysfunctional families.

Re your comment:-

"I feel like I can't win. If I don't go to the wedding, the narrative will be "The time Gobbo ruined the wedding by refusing to come as her DC weren't invited". They are actually truly divorced from reality"

You cannot "win" whatever you decide but I would not go to this wedding under any circumstances and your parents should not give up their holiday for your dysfunctional in-laws. Where will it end?. You cannot attend anyway because of childcare issues.

They are indeed truly divorced from reality; the only reality they themselves accept is their own warped version of same. The one that your H is also dancing their tune to.

Ultimately you need to keep your own self and in turn your children well away from his side of the family; look at how they've messed up your DH here. They will do not too dissimilar emotional harm to your children as well.

All his relatives have done here is create drama; this is what they love to do.

This excerpt from Lightshouse may help you re low contact:-

"When it comes to dealing with abusive people who do not accept responsibility for their actions, in the great majority of cases, mental health professionals will recommend significantly reducing or eliminating contact entirely.

It is worth noting that the majority of people who choose low contact (LC) do progress soon after to no contact (NC). Low contact often becomes a temporary stepping stone or a kind of trial period along the way to no contact, but not always.

Each person's situation is unique; however, it's common for toxic individuals (narcissists who engulf and borderline people, especially) to rail against your choices and bring out the very worst behaviour of which they are capable as soon as they begin realizing your intention to reduce or stop contact. A number of narcissists, especially, accept decisions to limit contact all too easily; however, many toxic people become disruptive and manipulative soon after in an attempt to regain control. (Typically, after a period of time - usually a number of weeks or months - they do give up and stop soliciting unwanted contact and manipulating.)

Witnessing increasingly bad behaviour has a way of resolving the denial, apprehension and guilt when choosing to limit contact with a toxic person. This increase in unacceptable behaviour typically confirms for the person pulling away that they have made the right decision.

Low Contact is undefined; however, if you are significantly limiting contact in comparison to what would be expected, you are considered to be LC.

NC, however, is very clearly defined, with very specific practices attached to it. Receiving information through third parties, listening to voice mail messages, opening cards and letters, accepting gifts for your children, and attending functions where the NC party is present are not considered NC, but forms of LC.

Many toxic people can and do use every possible opportunity to unrelentingly work their way back in and manipulate people into paying attention to them again, often just to prove they can: a gift for your son has an unexpected note inside promising him he can spend the holidays at his abusive grandparents' place, and that they will take him out and buy him whatever he wants, even though they know you have said you won't be visiting. The voice mail left at your work tells you that something just awful that you need to know about right away has happened. (If you call back, it will turn out that an old neighbour you haven't seen or spoken to in 10 years has divorced). There's a message from enabling Uncle Jim saying your narcissistic father is at the hospital, but he doesn't say what for, and you rush there to find out dad has received three stitches and a couple of Tylenol for a little cut on his finger.

These tactics do not last forever, and typically, they will eventually stop altogether (sooner if the person initiating NC does not waver in their resolve, as this has a way of setting the process back).

Because people with toxic personalities can be so unrelenting and so obsessed with getting attention and submission and creating drama, if what you want is to completely stop all their manipulation, all their games, all their abuse and all their crazy making -- preventing all contact (even indirect contact) permanently is the most highly recommended way to effectively do that".

Horrified at the idea that your parents would need to cancel their holiday!! (They sound lovely btw)
Send dh and low/no contact is the way to go. Totally unreasonable behaviour from dh family. People who say no kids at wedding must understand that that will mean some people can't attend especially if it's a distance away

Why can't you book a babysitter at the hotel like Safehands for a few hours and ask PIL for a contribution. I don't see the fuss. SIL is being a little unfair but if she doesn't have children she may not understand your problem.

It's one day just pay for a babysitter. Lots of people can't use parents for babysitters they just hire one.

If you don't want to go just let Dh go alone.

SIL has said that DC are not allowed in the hotel. Full stop. I am not comfortable leaving a breast fed baby, a 2 year old and a 3 year old in a B&B 20 miles away with a random they have never met before. PIL would refuse to pay anything anyway. Not that I would ever ask

I must have odd friends as I've never met anyone that would leave their DC with a stranger (albeit via an Internet baby sitting agency) unless it was a dire, life and death emergency

Oh and banning children from the premises is apparently fly to allow parents to "relax".

Strangely enough, my IL's family has a similar dynamic, with MIL and her daughter ruling the roost, or at least they think they still are. Most of the extended family now keep them at arms length and only see them on their terms.

If you keep a low profile with them, in a few years the new BIL will be the scapegoat. Maybe the penny is dropping with him what he is getting into, hence him getting snippy.

Don't be dragging a baby and pre-schoolers 150 miles away, to stay with a stranger, just to keep 2 controlling bitches happy!

Whatever you decide to do these disfunctional , unpleasant people will continue with their bad behaviour. I really feel for you and understand the temptation to let rip and give them a piece of your mind but it will only give you a sort of temporary relief . You need to think more long term than this .

As far as the wedding goes I would probably just say that you have tried get childcare and can't so will not be able to come ( hurray ! a lovely day with just you and the children whilst "D" H spends time with his family. ) . This is the simple truth and your husband can go to his sister's wedding so no harm done. She made the decision , as is her right , not to invite children ( apart from the " special " ones of course ) so can not act all surprised now that this leaves some people in a difficult situation regarding childcare.

If your H insists on all the complicated arrangements which will cost your family around £500 I would take that opportunity to go absolutely apeshit ! ( a technical term for all but ripping his head off !) Tell him not to be so utterly ridiculous.

I would not ask your parents to cancel their holiday .... utter madness and enabling your DH and ILS bad behaviour. What your parents do in their own time is their business and not anyone else's .Point this out forcefully to your DH. Grandparents are not obliged to provide childcare .... it isn't the law ! Given how difficult his own parents have been in the past he's got a flaming cheek . Also , I wouldn't encourage your father to speak to him . Why should your parents have to do this and put up with any unpleasantness after all they have previously done for you both ? My approach would be to shelter them from this and not encourage any involvement.

In future , if DH invites his family to your home he should be the one to facilitate it. Make this very clear to him. Changing beds , washing bedding , shopping , cooking etc. .... all down to him. Tell him you do this for your parents visits so this is just being fair. When they visit just stay as long as you want to then find other things to do ..... even a pile of ironing to do ( in an upstairs bedroom with the tv to watch . I used to do this when my MIL started to drive me nuts ..... DH behind a newspaper as usual to avoid talking to her !) . There is no law that says you have to spend time with people you dislike or dislike you. Don't worry about any " fallout " from this . After all , that's been happening anyway when you've tried to do the right thing so you have nothing to lose. With luck , when DH has to do some of the work himself to facilitate their visits they will be visiting less often ! I speak from experience . When I stopped being the one who kept in touch with my DH's sister and organising things when she came she stopped coming quite so often . In fact , we haven't seen her for over a year now .. result !!!!

Stop being the one who tries to smooth things over and sort out problems for everyone .... as of today. Tell him to sort things out with anything to do with his family . Oh , and ask him why he hasn't sorted out any childcare for his sisters wedding !!!

The 'we want you to relax and enjoy yourself so we're not inviting your kids' thing makes me incredibly angry. If you gave a shiny shit what I wanted, you'd invite my whole family and let me decide how to relax and enjoy myself.

No one has to invite kids to their wedding, but for fucks sake don't pretend you're doing me a favour.

I wouldn't go. It's not practical. BUT you need to get your DH on side. It's you he should be supporting as not going is completely reasonable.

Every single family 'event' is going to be like this. There will always be some sort of bizarre problem that makes it impossible for you to come out of it as the good guy. Like Christmas and this wedding. It will be birthdays too, I'd bet.

Basically, the family event is the perfect opportunity for them to show their control over their family and their contempt for individuals who don't do as they are told. So they will engineer situations to make you look like you're the bad guy, often coming out of nowhere and unpredictable. Whilst you are busy trying to resolve it, you sink further and further into their quicksand - these problems are always impossible to resolve. They are meant to be impossible to resolve, because they are designed to trap you in their weird little attention seeking games.

So, don't enter the quicksand. Say 'I am unable to get a babysitter and so cannot come,' and leave it at that. There will be a backlash, because of course you are meant to struggle in the quicksand and sink into your bad guy role. But just ignore it. If your husband gives you shit over it, tell hi straight: your family have caused this issue, not me. I have no way of resolving it.

Do you think he has had enough too? If he is fed up with it, maybe you can start advising him on how to stay out of the quicksand too...once you've read that toxic in laws book.

Tactics commonly used ime are: being late somewhere and blaming you for incorrect time/place info, you 'forgetting' to give them a gift they wanted which they never actually asked you for, you not letting them see their gc when they want to, if you stand up for yourself they totally lose their shit and start to cry/scream/wail that you're cruel etc etc.

Yeah leave your 13 week old with some randomer so that bridezilla isn't inconvenienced. That's definitely the way to go

Serious problems with Christmas - tick

Being late/turning up far too early within no notice - tick

Turning up at the wrong place - tick

Losing their shit and screaming and bawling - tick

To echo what other posters have said- there's no point wasting your breath trying to put your side of the story across. They won't hear you, or even acknowledge you.

You've already made it clear that child care is not possible this time, and that it's unlikely that you'll be able to go. You have to put your children first, and to be honest being on hand to breastfeed the baby is absolutely the only priority here. Your other children are toddlers, it would be utterly unreasonable to leave them cooped up in a B+B all weekend.

There's no need to say anything- it'll only be used against you in anger. You just need to stop facilitating the behaviour- don't arrange visits from ILs to your house, don't make plans around the wedding, don't make contact with ILs. All you can do is step back.

It's actually very simple, OP. You can't go to the wedding because your DC aren't invited. RSVP to the bride and groom to say so, and then STOP DISCUSSING IT WITH EVERYONE. Step away from the drama. It's their problem, not yours.

Your only real problem here is your husband. In your position I would insist on couple's counselling or divorce. There is no other option. In couple's counselling I would insist on addressing his toxic family and the need for him to respect your POV and needs, and to introduce some boundaries with them. If he won't do that, divorce.

That might sound drastic but it's seriously the only option. He hasn't listened to you so far and I think that it may take the very real threat of divorce for him to realise how crucial this is.

You two might not be on the same page but you should always be a team.

That's a great analogy Rickety.

Gobbo, all you can do is step away from the quicksand. The in-laws are alone in their little group, ranting away on an island out at sea and insisting that you negotiate the quicksand- not so that you can reach the island, so that they get the pleasure of rejecting you from the island.

Stay with us on the shoreline of sanity!

I think that DH takes the path of least resistance. It's easier to come home and shout the odds at me than tell his mum to piss off

My DH used to be like this as MIL cried if she doesn't get her own way and he was always stuck in the middle. In the end I hated doing it but I had to make it worse for him to upset me by his decisions than his mum then he would actually think about the consequences of being a nodding dog and going along with whatever she wanted. As we don't live close by it's easier now for him to be detached from the manipulation and to recognise attempts albeit far fewer now.

You need to accept there is NO WAY you can make these people happy. Whatever you do, however you try, it is not going to ever end in success because they are getting their needs met by the negative 'it's all so and so's fault'.

Once you reach that point acceptance you can let go of trying or caring about how they respond - it's going to be some varying degree of kick off - and the only thing that matters is an outcome with the least harassment and stress for you. Give them nothing to feed off. No descriptions of how you feel, no drama, no shouting, no ultimatums, no emotion, all of it pours fuel on their fire. Dispassionate, cheerful 'yep, can't get childcare so dh'll see you on the day. Have a lovely time'. No further discussion.

Your parents absolutely should not be making such a big sacrifice as a holiday to reward this toddler tantrum, it's ridiculous. Normal people would not even consider asking never mind demanding.

I totally get the frustration, the desire to tell them all to f off and the feeling that they will have won if you back down. Honestly, I do!! My in laws and their extended family also have legendary nc/arguments/dramas that I am always agog at. All sounds very familiar.

I would also advocate lc rather than nc and see how it goes. Just don't see the wedding as the thing that needs to trigger a stand off. It will never be anything other than their perfect storm of a drama and nothing you say or do later down the line will have the impact you want.

Sp, after the wedding is over (whether you go or not), just quietly back off arranging stuff with them yourself. Quietly back off answering the phone or text messages if they are from the in laws. Quietly back off being the one prompting your dh to see if he has called his mum, arranged for them to come over etc etc etc. Quietly back off being the one who buys the birthday cards and presents and coralls the kids together to phone and sing happy birthday. Quietly get your husband to take these things on.

Chances are he won't and the shit will hit the fan but you won't have initiated hassle. You can play innocent bewildered ("but I thought we decided that it was easier if you made plans and contact with your side and I did with mine) and be terribly sorry that things aren't quite as they were. I can guarantee they will either find an easier target and you will end up with a managed and acceptable relationship maintained at more of a distance or they will fall over themselves so badly to try and make you look awful when you have given them zero opportunity to do so, that even your dh will notice.

The latter happened to me and eventually we came to a better agreement about how we handled things in front of them (united, non-confrontational but always just brightly and cheerfully having a reason to leave early if shit starts stirring) and at home (still row about it at times but mostly collapse in relief about how nice it is not to be on tenterhooks all the time about the latest drama).

Good luck. It doesn't have to mean divorce but it does have to mean change.

Oh, and the other thing I used to tie myself up in knots about - what people will think.
What my mil will think - i wanted to be liked
what my fil/sil/bil etc will think - i wanted to be liked and helpful and the lovely person i usually am
what the extended family would think - i really liked them and hated not knowing what crap was being spouted behind my back but knew it would be poison
what the family friends would think - my dh has some lovely family friends. what if they believed all the shite?

You get the picture.

Anyway, when i decided that actually the people who really mattered to me, the people who would actually have my back, were the only ones that needed to know the truth, I started to let it all go.

You know what? Lots of people will be aware of their strange dynamics and shitty behaviour and won't think badly of you at all. They may well even silently cheer from the sidelines.

Others might say something straight out to you - sent in as flying monkeys from the poor, handwringing inlaws - but you can deal with those with simple facts and no emotion.

I promise you, you will come out of this as the better person and that will piss them off more than anything!!

I agree with Regular.

Save your energies for the people you care about and those who truly care about you.

Eventually I told my Mum about some of the stuff going on in my in-laws family and their control shit. It was a great weight off my mind and we had a laugh about it. She told me stuff about the shit she had from her inlaws - so it goes on!!

I laughed like a drain inside my head when I saw two toddlers (not part of the wedding) in the background of one of the photos of my own family 'child-free wedding'... It was taking place at a famous family-friendly attraction - but apparently there were 'no facilities for feeding, changing etc'.