Seriously thinking about NC with DH's side of the family

[Gobbolinothewitchscat]

This is going to be long but think I need to post the background

I've posted previously about SIL's wedding. I have 3 DCs - age 3, 2 and 13 weeks. The oldest have just turned 3 and 2 respectively so still small.

SIL is getting married about 150 miles away on a week day. We have been told no DCs at the wedding. Mil has a difficult family background and her half-brothers children will be going however - albeit they are older than ours. I susir t ultimately that SIL will also permit her friends to bring small babies. I understand that it is SIL's wedding but I find it pretty hurtful that our children (who are actually her closest relatives) are to be excluded.

My parents are extremely supportive of us and will normally drop anything to help us out. Mil has form for being very difficult and has been very unhelpful at difficult times - eg looked after putt DS on the day of my grandmother's funeral (250 miles away) but refused to rearrange plans so I had to get out cleaner to come and look after DS (then 1 year old) as she had to leave at 5pm. The whole thing was horribly stressful and I still find it very upsetting to think about.

My parents normally drop everything to help us but normally go on holiday with friends around the date of SIL's wedding. They therefore told me immediately that they may be able to look after our DCs but that - in this instance - they actually won't cancel their holiday if the group of friends can only manage that date (they are all retired so tend to go quite last minute to get the best deal) and we should therefore get a plan B. I immediately highlighted this to DH and his response was - (massively fucking entitled) oh it's my sister's wedding. Surely they won't go away. I said they very well could and he should highlight this to his family now as we may not have any childcare and ultimately I wouldn't be able to go. Plus, I could very well still be feeding youngest DC. Really the only option would be to take someone to look after the DCs on site and I didn't even know if that would be feasible. But I was highlighting it now so that there were no amateur dramatics near the wedding if I couldn't go

Communication within DH's family is pretty piss poor so nothing was done.

At the weekend, SIL, MIL and FIL came ti visit and stay the night. SIL said something in passing about my parents looking after the DC and I said that actually they maybe away and there wasn't really a plan B. I said that I could perhaps ask my DS's key worker from nursery to travel to the wedding and look after the DCs but we would need to get him accommodation. And, in any event, I was uncomfortable about being away from my youngest DC even if I could get someone look after all DC at our house.

SIL told me that there were no rooms left at the hotel but if I got the key worker, he could perhaps stay at a local B&B. That she was having to lay £150 a head per guest and she wanted me to be able to relax and enjoy myself and also keep costs down - hence why our DCs weren't invited. I said that the best solution maybe to ask the key worker. And, if I did, would SIL like the DCs to be brought to the church (waiting outside during the ceremony) for a few photos as they would be in the area. Totally up to her obviously but thought she might like it. She said yes, but she was banning children from the church. I said I quite understood as FIL's brother's children had made a terrible racket during ours in the church (MIL insisted they were invited) and you could even hear the noise on the wedding video. MIL said she couldn't remember that but I said (nicely) that it was on the video. I also said that if my parents were looking after the DCs, they had also offered to bring them to the church (to wait outside) and take them home (a big thing as a huge drive) after if she wanted photos.

So - it was all perfectly pleasant and I thought the childcare issue was clear. More importantly, there was actually communication like normal people. DH then went to work in the morning and the DCs and I went out with SIL and the PILs for brunch - all perfectly pleasant. Nothing else said. I was slightly nervous about going out as the PILs had been invited to visit DC3 a few days after she was born and had been very late (with no communication). I was upstairs feeding the baby and DH had said something to MIL about it. She had started shouting and bawling at DH saying it was my fault and I was manipulating them and being very rude about me. I decided the best thing to do was pretend I hadn't heard and gloss over things. But, again, everything perfectly pleasant at brunch

DH then arrives home and asks me what I had been saying to his sister? I explained the position about childcare and said that I had highlighted this to him already but his approach seemed to have been that my parents would have to just cancel their holiday. That wasn't very constructive so I had highlighted things to SIL so she could make ab informed choice about allowing the DCs to attend in the vicinity and be looked after off site (pretty pissing annoying that DH could have mentioned it earlier so we could have got a room for them and carers at the hotel but now we couldn't) as ultimately if we couldn't get appropriate childcare, I wouldn't be able to go and with a wedding of 60 people, that would be noticeable.

DH then says that obviously I had a chip on my shoulder about FIL's neice making a racket during our wedding and that my parents were manipulating things by refusing to cancel their holiday (the irony after my grandmother's funeral and various other times that they have dropped everything and driven 300 miles to help us out after the PILs have let us down!). I susir t he had spoken to MIL on the way home.

I am absolutely fed up with this. I am fed up of rather than everyone talking civilly about things (as I tried to do) and resolve problems in good time, MIL then approaches DH behind my back. If she or SIL had a problem, why not discuss it with me at the time or the next day? I am fed up (and I think this is the crux of it) if DH not simply explaining that all I am trying to do is sort out childcare for the DCs (as basically he seems to have opted out of it and my parents - his indentured servants obviously - are to drop everything AGAIN to help out). Why is DH not able to actually support me (his wife) and make it clear - politely - to his family that if you have your wedding hundreds of miles away and don't invite your very young nieces and nephews, then yes, childcare will be an issue and that is not bring "difficult". It's a matter of fact. And, actually, if your "keeping costs down" banning your brothers children whilst letting others attend is actually pretty fucking hurtful

I actually don't know what to do. I've said tinDH that I think that actually everyone should just be honest and communicate clearly with each other now. So if he thinks my patents are "selfish"
and "manipulative" (the breath taking cheek!) he should say to their faces. Further, I will contact SIL and MIL and ask them if they need me to clarify anything about what we discussed. Further, another option is for me to not attend and look after the DCs which I think maybe the best option all round

I'm actually so so sick of this. I don't want to see the PILs again and I don't particularly want to see SIL again.

Should I contact them? Should I just decline the wedding invitation? I want to make it clear why

I also need to sort out the DH issue too

You can't change your in-laws. All you can do is prioritise your children, and stop taking responsibility for facilitating your in-laws batshittery.

Your problem here is your DH, not your inlaws. They are only able to behave in this way because he allows it.

Until he realises this and is willing to make change, then you are pretty much stuck.

I bet she would, she could start the process again with your kids. She's done a good job on your DH after all.
If your together and lc you can do a better job to protect them.

Your DH does need to see you and the kids as priority, he needs to protect you.
Our arguments go in cycles, it's not bad all the time. We generally ignore the situation 80% of the time, it generally kicks off around Mother's Day, birthdays and Christmas. Then settles back down. It never goes away totally (it wouldn't even if we had split up) but we do get some semblance of peace.

And you've told your parents not to cancel their holiday?

Please do so.

Your parents are presumably not in the first flush of youth. They deserve to go away with their friends while they still have the health and the ability to do so. They can't fix your DH's toxic relationship with his family. Nor can you.

Tell your DH that your parents are not cancelling their well deserved holiday and you are not going to the wedding as there is no practical way that you can attend due to no DCs. Tell him he can do what he wants as it's not your problem.

I know I'm late to the party here, but it's a situation where you can't win for losing. All you can do is make the choice that works best for you. If that works for your DH, fine. If not, then that's his problem.

I think when you said above that you aren't going to say any more about it, that it's up to your DH to sort the arrangements out and if you like what he comes up with you'll attend, if not you'll stay home is just right. His family, his problem.

In addition to Rookie's excellent comments above: not only can your parents not fix your DH's relationship with his family for him, it says a great deal that DH's family feel that this should be your parents' responsibility, or indeed anyone's responsibility to sacrifice themselves to 'make' them happy. That's the crux of it. Other people are responsible for making them ok.

I wonder how much this is genuinely coming from DH and how much this is conditioned thinking, usually in these situations the toxic parent has brainwashed the child to jump when told jump or dread the consequences. They're on an endless, futile quest to earn the love that is so constantly conditional on 'have you pleased me today/in the last half hour/on this thing that I currently want'.

Is DH's thinking usually logical and sensible until his parents get involved?

Dh has been brainwashed by years of this dysfunctional living and will feel very threatened by you even noticing it, never mind confronting him/them with it.

Clearly you cannot attend the wedding. Don't give a second thought to what they will say or think, it's all irrelevant.

Yes to LC with PILS, all of them. See them less often, for shorter periods of time, on neutral territory if possible. Do not give them any information about your life. Talk about the weather, Corrie, handbags.

DH is angry about your parents refusing to cancel their holiday as it is that which is highlighting his familys appalling behaviour and attitudes.

If DH really cannot support you though, then there is little point in trying to continue.

Oh Christ Gobbolino, hope you're ok

OP my in laws are extremely toxic. We are NC with FIL but MIL is a nightmare. You are far far too nice. Don't allow yourself to be treated like this. Your poor parents. I would have immediately declined. Sorry no childcare DH go alone. I have reached the point where I give no shits what is said about me behind my back. Crack on and if my DH won't stand up for me then he is weak himself. Stand up for yourself and your DC, don't bend over backwards, do the minimum.

Rookie is spot on.

No to the wedding - logistics don't work - end of - no need to give SiL chapter & verse details - she doesn't want children around -it's her wedding, her rules, ( and sounds like she is paying for it) just send DH on his own and plan a nice activity for yourself and DCs.

Be gracious, be polite - it's her wedding after all and brides get stressed. Decline to SIL face to face or at least on the phone , not by email, when DH is around so he hears the conversation.

Yes to your parents going on their holiday - they had planned it and will enjoy it (you would not enjoy being at the wedding in the circumstances)

No 1 priority is setting clear ground rules with DH re his family, assuming you want LC. Be clear and calm - don't give him scope to argue you are being emotional or irrational ( eg speculation about SiLs friends bringing their children).

Good luck - these things are very upsetting but you have a great relationship with your parents which is fantastic and with luck if you hold firm on this one can make your DH realise you /your parents can't be manipulated.

I'm glad that you can see your parents talking to DH and you trying to make the ILs see sense is pointless. IME anything you say can and will be used against you :(
It's a bit like dealing with a cross toddler, logic is wasted on them and no matter how many times you explain it nicely, they'll still find something to tantrum over.
You do need to put the ball firmly in DH's court. They will construct an alternate reality in which you are forcing him to do your bidding but you have to let them crack on. It really is a case of the best revenge being to live well. If they push it too far then DH will almost certainly opt for the quiet life and make less effort. Leave it up to him to handle.
Don't be hard faced about it, as much of a fool he may seem now, he needs to come to his own conclusions and you need to be the voice of sanity giving him the siren call away from the madness.

Is DH's thinking usually logical and sensible until his parents get involved?

Yes. This is why his behaviour re: his parents is so upsetting. He genuinely is s good dad and father. Tries very hard to make me and the children happy and gets on very well with my parents. Is logical and rational and even-tempered.

This is why the parent thing upsets me so much. He makes wild accusations based on nothing and ascribes horrible motives to us. I can't speak to him about it because it's impossible to discuss things rationally and I'm actually speechless at some of the things he comes up with.

I'm very disappointed though - I thought we'd had a bit of a break through when he told MIL to behave after her awful behaviour 3 days after DD was born. I feel we've regressed really badly

wolp - that analysis is spot on. I've been genuinely a bit freaked out by some of the insights on this thread. It's as though posters have observed us/them

You said you were gonna speak with him last night cos you wanted an apology. Did that happen?

Gobbolino 'ascribes horrible motives to us'.

Your DH is projecting. What he thinks of his family, he's turning into your family.

Frank discussion:

1. I'm not going to the wedding
2. The children and I will not be seeing your family for the foreseeable
3. You deal with your family, I'll deal with mine

You're being too nice, because you're a nice person. It doesn't win any prizes.

I've sent him an email. I want this in writing and frankly I don't care if he forwards it on to mil (don't think he will)

I've just made it very factual - this is a result the decision of your sister not to invite children or even allow them on the premises to be cared for. My parents and I are not the bad guys or otherwise required to jump to attention when MIL/SIL say.

I will let you know if/when I get a response.

I have read this full thread nodding my head, open mouthed and practically tearful at some of the insights on here which remind me of my own family.

The advice on here has been spot on and, sorry to hijack, but will be taking lots of it - if not all - on board.

Good luck Gobbilino

Have you told your parents that you've sent an email?

I really hope this all works out for you. I had a breakthrough with DH a couple of weeks ago (Fil posted something horrible about me on a talk forum - long story - and I showed DH without expecting any form of support) but I'm just waiting for the anger to recede and for things to go back to "normal" in dh's eyes.

What happens when you remind him of actions that made him angry at the time?

Gobbolino

I think the key thing is to keep the lines of communication open with your DH (which is what you're doing) and not brushing shit like this under the carpet.

I'm NC with the MIL (divorced from FIL - who we don't see from one year to the next) but DH has phone contact. The one thing that I've picked up on over the years is that DH will do ANYTHING to avoid a confrontation with his mother (It's almost a pathological fear).

This has (in the past) included going against my wishes about things because he knows no matter how pissed off I get, I will never respond as badly as her (this is accurate - I don't tend to wail hysterically). It also means he will let things drag on rather than saying "No" straight away (we suffered a 3 month campaign of "I want your cat" when I was pregnant - she was never going to get the cat, but he wouldn't tell her to STFU about it) This is because he was conditioned for the first 20 years of his life to never upset his mother. He understands this now, he still avoids confrontation but by being low contact rather than shoving me under the bus. He does, however, have my full blessing to blame me for not letting her visit (I have fully embraced the "Evil DIL" persona - if you're being painted as that anyway, you might as well live up to it )

It may be that your parents being so supportive highlights his own family's shortcoming, but that doesn't mean he can lash out in their direction when his side are being so crap.

I feel sad that there are so many people in the same position but pleased that I posted here where we can all hopefully weather the storm a bit

I'm not going NC with the PILs as that would play right into their hands to be honest as I couldn't prevent DH and the DC from seeing them and I want to be there when they do

However, I will not see the PILs on my own. I'm not getting into a huge drama with DH about this, I will just ensure that I always have a prior commitment if he needs to go to work. I will contact the PILs before they come to make sure they are aware of the apocryphal party or whatever I will be relying on. Any texts etc, DH will be copied in on.

I am also taking the advice to keep the conversation as anodyne as possible. In respect of any further conversations that we may have to have regarding "difficult" issues, I will make sure that DH is involved - to the extent that I will interrupt him mid-conversation with who ever else he is with and say what I am doing - "to make sure we're all clear and in the loop" (with a sunny smile)

My parents and I have determined that (a) they intend to step back in term of the help they offer and (b) natural consequences will be allowed to occur - ie if they are on holiday then so be it. They have provisionally also been invited to a 70ty birthday party about 300 miles away from them too around the same time. No date as yet as the birthday girl has a son in Singapore who is currently looking at flights/visiting wife's family etc when they come over befits confirming dates. Naturally, SiL's wedding is totally immaterial to them so the party may well be the day after SIL's wedding. Therefore it is looking increasingly likely that my parents won't be available.

No response from DH

My DH walked out on me and my DC after I finally stood my ground against my mil. Said he could not deal with it and left. I have now heard she is funding him to stay away and is already trying to arrange holidays through him with his contact with DC. I like you allowed them to get away with far too much for far too long and on this occassion my compromise wasn't good enough for her. She insulted me, my DC and my parents. DH would not support me saying I should have gone along with what she wanted even though it wasn't in the best interest of DC. My DC doesnt even get on with them and they make little effort to see DC. You have to do what is right for you and your DCs. If DH is truly with you he will stand by whatever decision you make.

fox - yes, I've told them about the email.

Re: how does DH react after saying such things. He either glosses over it or genuinely does not seem to remember what he has said it says I have "misunderstood".

I remember a feeling of total cognitive disonance during our "discussion" as he took a break from laying into me and my parents to ask if I wanted a cup of tea

I've tried explaining to him that you cannot say ghastly things to people which leave them reeling and just gloss over thing sorcery it's ok because you didn't mean it.

Generally, we fairly rarely have a big argument and when we do, it is pretty much PIL related. The reason it is normally such a huge argument is because he has zero conflict resolution skills around anything to do with them so an adult discussion is impossible. It's fall into line or nuclear reaction

Your DH is firmly mired in the FOG. At this point he cannot emotionally handle the truth, that his parents are manipulative and self-centred (at the very least).

All you can do is stand firm, for yourself and for your children. Refuse to allow him to either bully you or guilt you in to doing what his parents want. It may be in the long term that he begins to see the truth. Or not.

He's basically being civil but avoiding me.

What happens now? My email is perfectly clear and makes it clear that I want an apology

Do I ask if he has read the email?

Do I work on the basis that I have had my say and leave things as is to allow natural consequences to take effect?

I'm a pretty straight forward type of person so don't want to decend into cold warfare - particularly as we have children

In fairness you took it to cold warfare by emailing him rather than confronting him. I appreciate why you did it, but it has created a situation where he can just ignore it and you have to make the first move from a slightly weaker position.

I would leave it another day or two and then say you'd like to discuss the email you sent so that you can clear the air between the two of you.