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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Seriously thinking about NC with DH's side of the family

467 replies

Gobbolinothewitchscat · 22/02/2016 02:46

This is going to be long but think I need to post the background

I've posted previously about SIL's wedding. I have 3 DCs - age 3, 2 and 13 weeks. The oldest have just turned 3 and 2 respectively so still small.

SIL is getting married about 150 miles away on a week day. We have been told no DCs at the wedding. Mil has a difficult family background and her half-brothers children will be going however - albeit they are older than ours. I susir t ultimately that SIL will also permit her friends to bring small babies. I understand that it is SIL's wedding but I find it pretty hurtful that our children (who are actually her closest relatives) are to be excluded.

My parents are extremely supportive of us and will normally drop anything to help us out. Mil has form for being very difficult and has been very unhelpful at difficult times - eg looked after putt DS on the day of my grandmother's funeral (250 miles away) but refused to rearrange plans so I had to get out cleaner to come and look after DS (then 1 year old) as she had to leave at 5pm. The whole thing was horribly stressful and I still find it very upsetting to think about.

My parents normally drop everything to help us but normally go on holiday with friends around the date of SIL's wedding. They therefore told me immediately that they may be able to look after our DCs but that - in this instance - they actually won't cancel their holiday if the group of friends can only manage that date (they are all retired so tend to go quite last minute to get the best deal) and we should therefore get a plan B. I immediately highlighted this to DH and his response was - (massively fucking entitled) oh it's my sister's wedding. Surely they won't go away. I said they very well could and he should highlight this to his family now as we may not have any childcare and ultimately I wouldn't be able to go. Plus, I could very well still be feeding youngest DC. Really the only option would be to take someone to look after the DCs on site and I didn't even know if that would be feasible. But I was highlighting it now so that there were no amateur dramatics near the wedding if I couldn't go

Communication within DH's family is pretty piss poor so nothing was done.

At the weekend, SIL, MIL and FIL came ti visit and stay the night. SIL said something in passing about my parents looking after the DC and I said that actually they maybe away and there wasn't really a plan B. I said that I could perhaps ask my DS's key worker from nursery to travel to the wedding and look after the DCs but we would need to get him accommodation. And, in any event, I was uncomfortable about being away from my youngest DC even if I could get someone look after all DC at our house.

SIL told me that there were no rooms left at the hotel but if I got the key worker, he could perhaps stay at a local B&B. That she was having to lay £150 a head per guest and she wanted me to be able to relax and enjoy myself and also keep costs down - hence why our DCs weren't invited. I said that the best solution maybe to ask the key worker. And, if I did, would SIL like the DCs to be brought to the church (waiting outside during the ceremony) for a few photos as they would be in the area. Totally up to her obviously but thought she might like it. She said yes, but she was banning children from the church. I said I quite understood as FIL's brother's children had made a terrible racket during ours in the church (MIL insisted they were invited) and you could even hear the noise on the wedding video. MIL said she couldn't remember that but I said (nicely) that it was on the video. I also said that if my parents were looking after the DCs, they had also offered to bring them to the church (to wait outside) and take them home (a big thing as a huge drive) after if she wanted photos.

So - it was all perfectly pleasant and I thought the childcare issue was clear. More importantly, there was actually communication like normal people. DH then went to work in the morning and the DCs and I went out with SIL and the PILs for brunch - all perfectly pleasant. Nothing else said. I was slightly nervous about going out as the PILs had been invited to visit DC3 a few days after she was born and had been very late (with no communication). I was upstairs feeding the baby and DH had said something to MIL about it. She had started shouting and bawling at DH saying it was my fault Confused and I was manipulating them and being very rude about me. I decided the best thing to do was pretend I hadn't heard and gloss over things. But, again, everything perfectly pleasant at brunch

DH then arrives home and asks me what I had been saying to his sister? I explained the position about childcare and said that I had highlighted this to him already but his approach seemed to have been that my parents would have to just cancel their holiday. That wasn't very constructive so I had highlighted things to SIL so she could make ab informed choice about allowing the DCs to attend in the vicinity and be looked after off site (pretty pissing annoying that DH could have mentioned it earlier so we could have got a room for them and carers at the hotel but now we couldn't) as ultimately if we couldn't get appropriate childcare, I wouldn't be able to go and with a wedding of 60 people, that would be noticeable.

DH then says that obviously I had a chip on my shoulder about FIL's neice making a racket during our wedding Confused and that my parents were manipulating things by refusing to cancel their holiday (the irony after my grandmother's funeral and various other times that they have dropped everything and driven 300 miles to help us out after the PILs have let us down!). I susir t he had spoken to MIL on the way home.

I am absolutely fed up with this. I am fed up of rather than everyone talking civilly about things (as I tried to do) and resolve problems in good time, MIL then approaches DH behind my back. If she or SIL had a problem, why not discuss it with me at the time or the next day? I am fed up (and I think this is the crux of it) if DH not simply explaining that all I am trying to do is sort out childcare for the DCs (as basically he seems to have opted out of it and my parents - his indentured servants obviously - are to drop everything AGAIN to help out). Why is DH not able to actually support me (his wife) and make it clear - politely - to his family that if you have your wedding hundreds of miles away and don't invite your very young nieces and nephews, then yes, childcare will be an issue and that is not bring "difficult". It's a matter of fact. And, actually, if your "keeping costs down" banning your brothers children whilst letting others attend is actually pretty fucking hurtful

I actually don't know what to do. I've said tinDH that I think that actually everyone should just be honest and communicate clearly with each other now. So if he thinks my patents are "selfish"
and "manipulative" (the breath taking cheek!) he should say to their faces. Further, I will contact SIL and MIL and ask them if they need me to clarify anything about what we discussed. Further, another option is for me to not attend and look after the DCs which I think maybe the best option all round

I'm actually so so sick of this. I don't want to see the PILs again and I don't particularly want to see SIL again.

Should I contact them? Should I just decline the wedding invitation? I want to make it clear why

I also need to sort out the DH issue too

OP posts:
Gobbolinothewitchscat · 25/02/2016 16:20

Barcelona still going ahead but DH has booked flights and paid SIL for his portion of accommodation so at least that is covered.

I had talked about it until I was blue in the face, but to DH, this was me not liking his DM.

Um. Yup.

I think counselling is the way ahead now. I'm sure DH will refuse to come but I'm going to go. What kind of counsellor do you need clueless?

OP posts:
AcrossthePond55 · 25/02/2016 16:29

Wait, your MiL is the one that usurped your romantic weekend and turned it into a family do? The one who called the cottages and changed everything without your knowledge?

Oh Lordy!

Counseling, definitely. Not sure about what they'd call it in the UK but here it's a Marriage and Family Therapist. Try to find one who has experience in spousal denial of narc family. And remember that you may not 'hit' the right counselor first time. We saw three others before we found ours. She saved our marriage and has now saved our son from the hell that is PTSD.

And yes, go alone if he won't go. Many times it'll prompt them to go because they 'want to know what's being said about them' or they're afraid you'll be told they're hopeless and to leave (which can happen).

NameChange30 · 25/02/2016 16:35

In the UK it's often called couple's counselling or therapy. Relate is a well known provider and most of their counsellors are very good, but not all of them. If necessary you can ask to change counsellors or ask for a particular one.

Gobbolinothewitchscat · 25/02/2016 16:37

No! Don't know anything about cottages etc. Think that must be another thread.

OP posts:
Joysmum · 25/02/2016 16:40

So glad to read your post at 12:42. Please remain focussed on how he's treating you from now on. It's one thing how he is where his family are concerned, but how he is with you is the most important. Look out for yourself Flowers

AcrossthePond55 · 25/02/2016 16:45

Oh, ok. It was the Barcelona thing that made me ask. Another poster had booked a romantic getaway, MiL got wind and changed the ressie into a family cottage and invited the whole family without asking the OP.

She cancelled their part and booked a getaway to Barcelona for her and DH.

Gobbolinothewitchscat · 25/02/2016 16:55

I need a whiteboard!

The problem is, that only works if the other person is using it in good faith too.

I'm worried that DH will not use it as actually he doesn't wNt to be pinned down (no room for manoeuvre is MIL gets awkward)

Just reviewing our convo last night and something is really niggling me. He said something about us "leaning on SIL's good nature" to have the DC there.

To have the DC in the same venue (with carer) is somehow taking advantage of SIL? To normal people that would be ensuring that the DC were being well looked after and that SIL's brother at the bare minimum could relax and enjoy the wedding. It would be something that they would want to do. Not someone (ie me!) "taking advantage of them.

We are both like wet rags at the moment so I am saying nothing tonight. However, he gave my email details for the B&b confirmation

In a few days/a week, I am going to forward it on and say that I obviously do not want to "take advantage of SIL's goodwill" re: quite a normal request.

Therefore unless he can confirm to me in writing that he is equally happy with the plan AND equally happy to make that clear to SIL/MIL, I'll give the whole thing a miss

Off to google relate

OP posts:
LaContessaDiPlump · 25/02/2016 17:00

Re:whiteboard - then only you need to write on it (DH never used ours but he respected its sayings). If it's something that you just know will come back to bite you in the ass, use permanent marker (or one that needs more than water to be removed) and feign exasperation when it won't shift. I think it just makes a really good incontrovertible record. He might go a bit crazier mind you, as he won't have that wriggle room any more. Only you can decide whether you are mentally strong enough for this atm.....

AcrossthePond55 · 25/02/2016 17:06

Take a picture of the whiteboard whenever it's used and/or changed.

At this point if you're seeking counseling, I'd probably give it all a rest. If he's not going to work with you, you may as well not engage with him further. Concentrate on getting into counseling asap and get the support, 'back up', and tools to deal with the problems in your marriage. Right now you're sort of 'fighting off a mist' iyswim.

VinceNoirLovesHowardMoon · 25/02/2016 17:23

He's deep in the FOG with his batshit family. It's a mountain to climb Flowers

Gobbolinothewitchscat · 25/02/2016 18:24

I've emailed Relate.

I'm going to try the whiteboard and taking photos but I'm not sure I actually want to have to live my life like that.

OP posts:
LaContessaDiPlump · 25/02/2016 18:29

Well of course not, Gobbolino. It's a practical solution for an emotional problem. However, dealing with it practically may help to prepare both of you to deal with it emotionally, IYSWIM.

OnceAMeerNotAlwaysAMeer · 25/02/2016 18:44

You say he's normally a rational, kind, involved husband and father?

Yet he becomes a gaslighting, unreliable, highly unsupportive and abusive man when his family are involved. He's terrified of his family isn't he?

gobbolino I think you might be on a long term campaign to extracate him from their clutches, in the mental sense. He soudns like a decent man who's been punched in the guts by them and has been deeply moulded by them

You might be in this for the long haul and you might have a subtle but rather important fight on your hands. The good news is that he does (partially) listen to you which is a very good sign. Some people do manage to slowly guide / push / lead their partners out of the trap, and he sounds essentially decent.

Toxic Families and Toxic In Laws are going to be essential reading.

NameChange30 · 25/02/2016 19:21

I don't think he is a decent man, he didn't support the OP when her parent was seriously ill (if I remember the details rightly) - he let her down badly and that had nothing to do with his family.

I think he's learned toxic behaviours from them that he is now inflicting on the OP... Sure it's worse when they're involved but if he was so wonderful he would be listening to her and not automatically taking their side. He wouldn't be "cold" either.

Gobbolinothewitchscat · 25/02/2016 19:28

My parents - thank God - have never been seriously ill

OP posts:
NameChange30 · 25/02/2016 19:37

Oh ok, sorry, must have got threads mixed up

OnceAMeerNotAlwaysAMeer · 25/02/2016 19:45

lightshouse.org/lighthouse-bak2/fleas-fleas-fleas.html Fleas.

I think he's learned toxic behavour too and if it goes on, it could get a lot worse. But there seems to be a chance to change.

Trojanhorsebox · 25/02/2016 20:20

Well I'm lost - am I the only one not sure if the children are invited or not now?

Have you actually had confirmation of that from anyone other than your husband ? Have you been told by SIL verbally, or preferably in writing, that they can come ?

He may now be saying they were invited all along, but I have visions of you turning up with them and a childminder on the day and MIL or SIL having a hissy fit and trying to send them, and you, away.

redexpat · 25/02/2016 20:27

The author og Toxic Inlaws has also written a book called Toxic Parents. Perhaps you could get your DH a copy? Maybe an audiobook to listen to on his commute since he is working sø much.

It seems to me that this battle is almost over, but the war has just begun.

At some point he will have to choose between you+DC and his family. I would prepare for the latter(written communication, copies of tax returns etc) but hope and work for the former.

Gobbolinothewitchscat · 25/02/2016 20:28

Well quite trojan

At its highest, all we really need is for the DC to be allowed access to the premises. Obviously it would be very nice if SIL were to welcome them kindly to the bits of the wedding that suited them but - worst case scenario - if she really cannot bear to see them, there is plenty for them to be doing in the grounds and the playroom and we can keep popping out periodically to check them/feed the baby etc

However, As i e set out above, I am very uncomfortable with DH's commebts about us "having to take advantage of SIL's good nature (oh irony, they name is DH!)" for the pram to even be allowed over the threshold.

That looks to me like a recipe for a whole new drama about the time I insisted that the DC were invited to SIL's wedding

That being the case, I'm more and more minded to wait for a bit and say to DH that on reflection I think it's easier all round if just he goes as the last thing I want is for the DC to be on the premises under sufferance.

OP posts:
Sgoinneal · 25/02/2016 20:56

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MtnBikeChick · 25/02/2016 21:10

Why on earth are you letting your parents cancel their holiday?!!!!! This is beyond me! You are a grown up - why should your parents drop everything in their life to deal with this shizzle? Just don't go! It is only a wedding - do you want to go? Doesn't sound like it. Then don't go and distance yourself from these horrid people. You won't change them. There is no point texting to tell them what they have done yadda yadda as they have no clue - they will never change.

Trojanhorsebox · 25/02/2016 21:16

That looks to me like a recipe for a whole new drama about the time I insisted that the DC were invited to SIL's wedding

That is exactly why people are telling you to do what you want to do - you will never do right for doing wrong trying to please this family. You will be the bad guy regardless so decide what you want to do and don't engage further.

You don't want to go, you waste money, time and effort organizing childcare and have all the hassle and inconvenience of traveling with young children - all to still be wrong, just as wrong as if you hadn't gone but had stayed home relaxing having pizza and wine in front of a movie on TV with friends who actually do want to spend time with you.

To me it seems like his family don't want you there, they just want to know they can make you be there on a whim, and they can enjoy watching you jumping through hoops trying to make it happen - all to be slapped down again. Power games - disengage......

If they wanted you there, the children would be invited or some sort of compromise or solution about childcare would be offered.

I won't say anything else about your husband, but counseling sounds like a good plan for both of you to move forward.

Gobbolinothewitchscat · 25/02/2016 21:51

I think we've mad some further progress tonight

We have talked about the wedding quite civilly and said that we will agree exactly what we both want to do in the course of the next week. DH will then speak to SIL and let her know.

I have said that we must be 100% in agreement and that he must absolutely be clear to MIL and SIL that we have agreed this together. If not, neither the DC and I are going

I then think I went slightly too far as I said I have found the time since DDs birth to be horrifically stressful re: MIL. And that I won't be the last in a long line of women that MIL falls out with.

DH has said that I fall out with lots of people (er.....no?) and that it's just tit for tat (MIL has a fractious relationship with one SIL and is no contact with the other two (their choice), is constantly horrible about them and usually is on non-speakers with her own mother)?!?! He didn't shout st me but ran out the room Confused

Not sure if I should have said that. It's very hard to be restrained

OP posts:
BurningBridges · 25/02/2016 22:00

It's very hard to be restrained - sorry Gobbo but I think many of us feel like that about this thread now. Its as if you are enabling this drama to go on and on, ever heard that saying "just say no"?!