Ok ladies....roll up...my observations on dating after learning the hard way

[MakingItReal]

Right, I have been dating for a few years now and I see the same problems come up over and over again - causing us unknown strife and heartache. I know there are exceptions to every rule - but in my experience and in every case I know the following is absolutely true:

Translating what he says

1. If a man says he is not looking for a relationship
THEN HE IS NOT LOOKING FOR A RELATIONSHIP. He's not going to fall in love with you and change his mind. He enjoys your company and all the free sex he has already decided that you are NOT going to be a long term relationship for him.

2. If a man says he is not looking for a relationship part 2
He is keeping his options open so that he can freely move on to the next person when he finds her and believe me he is still looking regardless of the fact he has told you that you are exclusive.

3. When he says "I don't want to hurt you
This means he is going to hurt you. He realises you like him and are invested and he is aware he is going to hurt you. Someone who wants to be with you would be telling you 'I'm not going to hurt you'. There is only a slight difference between the two phrases but the meaning of each is completely different.

5. You are more than just sex
This means you are just sex.
If he says it to you along with any of phrases 1 & 2 then you are DEFINITELY just sex. He is trying to convince you you mean more to him than just sex so that you stick around hoping for a relationship.

4. I might be ready for a relationship in the future
Yes, he will. But it won't be with you. If he wanted you to be his girlfriend, you already would be.

The Hard, Cold Facts:

If he wants you long term, you will know. Even shy men or men with commitment problems will not want to risk losing the woman they see as special above all others. So you will know.

If you are in a casual relationship or he is reluctant to commit and you want more the only solution is to walk away. If you stay, he will continue using you, and will value you less and less as time goes on. The only possible way for him to change his mind about you is to remove yourself from the equation.

If he has ishoos, it's not sexy, it's not a challenge, it's not a sign that you were destined to save him and win his love. It's a sign he will make a shitty partner, shitty father and shitty person to invest in. There is nothing sexier than a grown assed man with his shit together.

If he sends mixed messages, blows hot and cold, makes you feel unsure about what he wants and you find yourself posting on Mumsnet or Googling to try an figure out what he is thinking...RUN AWAY. It's not meant to be that complicated and a man that truly cares about how you feel is never going to make you wonder where you stand.

Never, ever, ever, ever underestimate the lengths a man will go to for sex. I hate to tarnish all men with that brush because they ain't all like it, but there are a scary proportion of men (younger ones especially) that will do anything to get sex off you. Espeically if it's good sex. They will jump on a plane, pay for expensive dates, stand outside your window singing Barry Manilow. And this ain't love. It's lust -and it means NOTHING except they really, really want to bang you.

Men, especially the younger and unevolved ones all have a strategy they have evolved to catch women. The good looking, charming ones might sweep you off your feet and you can see those coming - watch out for the underdog that wins you over by telling you a sob story about his alcoholic mother and how much he feels a "connection" with you. They're the worst, you never see them coming.

A good relationship makes you feel totally fullfilled. You don't wonder how they feel about you or why they haven't returned a message or why they didn't make plans for the weekend with you yet. They make you a priority and there's no grey area.

If he is up and down, hot and cold and all over you one minute leaving you confused the next then he is a prick. Without question. He's not scared, he's not busy, he's not anything- but a prick. Walk away, because he likes you...as an OPTION.

If he is still on dating sites logging on "just to check" after 12 dates or more...he is looking for someone better.

If he doesn't message or call you much one day but you notice he's been "online" quite a lot while telling you he is busy - then he is talking to someone else, a new prospect or perhaps someone else he has on the backburner.

Women and men are generally different in that we tend to bond more quickly /decide on one person -whereas they like to keep their options open. Never, ever, ever allow yourself to bond to a man before he's made it clear he's decided he wants you and only you.

If he is a bad boyfriend at the very start, he will be a thousand times worse by the time you have been with him a while and the honeymoon period is over.

If he doesn't make time to see you most weekends or ask you to meet his friends and family and be keen to meet yours or plan things to do together in advance or show in practical actions that he sees you as someone he wants to integtate into his life - they forget his words - his actions say it all.

We teach them how to treat us. So teach him that you are worth all the diamonds on earth by having boundaries in place to accept absolutely zero disrespect, selfishness or mind fuck behavior and he will either move on to the next person who is willing to accept his crap (making room for Mr Right to walk into yours) or he will look at you, realise what a strong, self respecting woman you are and realise that he had better step up his game. Either way you are a winner.

You never, ever, ever, ever, ever have anything to lose from walking away from a man who is giving you less than 100%. If he comes after you - you will be able to take back your power and he will know that he has to value and respect you to keep you. If he doesn't come after you - you will find someone better.

The part of me having these rules that I think is going to help me, is that it takes emotion out of it.

I don't have to sympathise with their issues
I don't have to be swayed by flowers and little notes
I don't have to worry and angst

It's just more simple.

If I feel neglected, confused, mixed messages or like things are not progressing...end of story, no worrying, no questioning...just out.

I think the first step to regaining self esteem in dating is to have standards like these.

It's a bit like standing up for yourself against a bully in a way. Just the act of saying "NO MORE" is a way to love yourself and to tell yourself you deserve better rather than relying on the esteem of this mixed up men to validate you.

I believed with my last one that him finally committing would validate me, that I was worth committing to, that I deserved better than I was getting

I missed the point completely.

What validates me and proves I am worth committing to and I deserve better is the simple act of not tolerating anything less

No, I know it's criticised. But I think even if you don't put much store in it, 'largely bollocks'' was a bit more than having criticisms. But never mind! Your absolute prerogative to disregard it.

Sorry, yes, maybe stronger language than I intended. I did say 'probably' largely bollocks. Meant light-heartedly really.

Anyway as with all these things, whatever people find useful is what is useful.

"the women i dated in the past would say I was hot and cold towards them. The reason I was hot and cold was I didnt want a relationship but wanted to keep my 'sexual options' open."

That's a twatish thing to do unless you told them that's what you were doing Arsenal. Did you actually say "I like you enough to fuck you but I don't want anything more from you"? If not why not? I'm honestly intrigued.

Totally agree with 314. I take a lot of what's said with a pinch of salt. Talk of futures is only what someone feels at that moment and there are no gaurantees they'll feel the same in a week/month/year. Anyway, actions speak louder than words, so (these days) I hear lovely things and think "that's nice, but I'll believe it when I see it".

"if a bloke is happy in a relationship & they're getting what they need, they'll be committed & won't stray."
I don't agree. I've known happily married men, who have lots of great sex at home, still look outside the relationship for sex because they want the variety of women. Their poor wives couldn't have done any more to make the relationship good, and the men admit this.

I don't have to sympathise with their issues
I don't have to be swayed by flowers and little notes
I don't have to worry and angst

Even more worrying, I got stuck with their issues but they did nothing to sway me. I really dont get it. Why do I put up with that?

That's a twatish thing to do unless you told them that's what you were doing Arsenal. Did you actually say "I like you enough to fuck you but I don't want anything more from you"? If not why not? I'm honestly intrigued.

I agree. The last guy did that to me. Didnt tell me he was using me for sex until he found a woman he deemed "worthy" to be his gf. If he told me that, he knew he wouldnt get the sex. I would wager that is why he didnt tell them that.

Everything in your posts SoThat shows cripplingly low self esteem. You put up with it because you feel it's all you deserve.

Nothing in these posts indicates you love, or even like or respect this man, so it sounds like you are using him as a tool to hate yourself with.

Nothing in these posts indicates you love, or even like or respect this man

That is because I am speaking after he screwed me over.

If I had been posting while we were "involved" my posts would have been very different.

I genuinely did enjoy his company and looked forward to seeing him.

Someone told me SoWhat, that a man is nothing without his word , and that men are defined by their character , convictions , bravery , strength of spirit , and the most important thing we do as human beings is to love.

I believe that.

So because I believe that, any man who is less than that isn't worth bothering with...so if you feel that and truly believe it you can let go of the past.

He's gone, he used you BUT he was never any good to begin with

a man is nothing without his word , and that men are defined by their character , convictions , bravery , strength of spirit , and the most important thing we do as human beings is to love.

What I found out at is that he has cheated in both major relationships he has had, sleeps around between relatinoships and lies to get sex, hates being single (so he is needy), has no backbone, when I caught him out on something ..he didnt own it and apologise he instead sulked and went into a mood to make me feel sorry for him and deflect the issue away from him. He lies, he is always whining about work, he cant cope with anything.

He's gone, he used you BUT he was never any good to begin with

I know that. My mind knows that. He is unlikely to become a decent man as decent men just are...you dont suddenly develope morals and decency in your mid thirties if you;ve never had them to begin with.

But my heart hasnt caught up yet and hope hasnt died off.

I think back in the day, being a 'cad' or a 'bounder' was something that did stain a man's character! It was mud that stuck, and did his standing no good. Think Willoughby in Sense and Sensibility! lol. Wickham in Pride and Prejudice. And we don't have to go back to Victorian times. I think before social media and the internet, the women a man could meet were limited to his own local, smaller world. He was acquainted to them. Now, bad behaviour doesn't stick. What happened on the internet stays on the internet.

Now, things have changed so much that a man can behave however badly he likes really and there are no repercussions. Just more and more onus on a woman to get it right.

Yeah you're right 314

The new victim gf of that guy probably as no idea that he was with and probably loads of others right before her and may have been some overlap.

She probably has no idea of the cruel and selfish things he is capable of...yet.

The only thing you can e sure of is although mud doesnt stick now...Ive never seen a stripy leopard. I refuse to believe that this guy is capable of being decent to anyone. Even with someone he wants to be with, he is so selfish and moody and perverted that I cant believe one woman will ever be enough for him. Once the newness wears off.

The only repurcussions are they keep showing the same behaviour.

I think back in the day, being a 'cad' or a 'bounder' was something that did stain a man's character! It was mud that stuck, and did his standing no good. Think Willoughby in Sense and Sensibility! lol. Wickham in Pride and Prejudice. And we don't have to go back to Victorian times. I think before social media and the internet, the women a man could meet were limited to his own local, smaller world. He was acquainted to them. Now, bad behaviour doesn't stick. What happened on the internet stays on the internet.

100000 x YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If a man behaved like this in a small circle, he'd have a lot less options and none of them would be interested if they knew what he was like. They get away with it now unfortunately so the messed up, selfish, immature and generaly wankbadgers are roaming free online

..they have the skills that some of us haven't honed yet and need to [my bold]

I don't agree we need to. The vast majority of us are not operating from the broad pool that eg Robinson is. Therefore the same rules - not that she promotes rules necessarily - don't apply imo.

Not bold after all

Yes, I do agree with you Springydaffs, different personality types will flourish or tread water, or wither, or thrive, or die at different stages of a relationship, different challenges etc.. fwiw, I believe I am about as sorted as I can be. I value myself. I don't tolerate a lack of respect. I walk away. Nobody has treaty me badly for a long time. But like I said upthread, that doesn't make it easy.

I am veyr goo onc in relationships at resolving issues and all of the other things some find harder to do. I tend to be very secure once committed etc.

I have always found the initial stages a little harder

Im beginning to think I'd be better off conceding being single for good and be done with it.

I only ever get guys who use and dont really care.

Just turn my life into a long bucket list for me and fuck everyone else.

I don't think you can predict who is and who isn't going to be a user. And I include friendships in this - I said upthread these rules could apply to friendships just as well.

Yes I'm sorted. I know who I am and what I do, and don't, want or deserve. Doesn't mean I don't get hurt.

"I don't think you can predict who is and who isn't going to be a user. And I include friendships in this"

Yeah there's plenty of "trouble at the school gates" type threads on MN about so called friends behaving like arses.

Family members, friends, partners; they can all be users.

I think though that it's easy to become jaded and that can colour your view. Judge a man by his actions and not by his words. But just because you feel anxious, it doesn't necessarily mean something is wrong. Anxiety is a feeling not a premonition. A lot of us who have been hurt in the past are guilty of letting the past dictate the future.

In the early stages, for me it is dating, it's a bit of fun, it's giddy and exciting, but it's not real. I always hold back, I don't know this person, I am having a sexual connection, but no emotional connection. That may or may not come. If it does develope into more, it has to enhance my life, otherwise it is the one ball, I can and do choose to drop.

I am completely upfront, regarding my position. I usually have sex on the first date. I am 51, if a man is going to judge me on some outdated bollocks, he is not for me.

Do you genuinely want to have sex on the first date though?

314 Yes. I usually take the lead. I suppose to be fair, I am talking RL meetings.
I didn't enjoy OLD. Didn't bother meeting many. Only had sex with one, not one first date. Always had a rule, maximum of two drinks on meet up.
Had some sex on 2nd date, stayed night at his on third date, full sex.
I had his No, from first meeting, a charmer. But I wanted to get back on the horse.
I ended it with him, a few weeks in, great sex, but for me, no real connection.
He, I think was a hot and cold type, but I didn't give a shit, it was just sex.
I ended it with him after a few weeks. I think he is the sort, that can't believe they have been dumped. Still get the odd message over three years later. Not because I am some great catch, but because of his need to restore, his view of the natural order. How fucking dare I !