Ok ladies....roll up...my observations on dating after learning the hard way

[MakingItReal]

Right, I have been dating for a few years now and I see the same problems come up over and over again - causing us unknown strife and heartache. I know there are exceptions to every rule - but in my experience and in every case I know the following is absolutely true:

Translating what he says

1. If a man says he is not looking for a relationship
THEN HE IS NOT LOOKING FOR A RELATIONSHIP. He's not going to fall in love with you and change his mind. He enjoys your company and all the free sex he has already decided that you are NOT going to be a long term relationship for him.

2. If a man says he is not looking for a relationship part 2
He is keeping his options open so that he can freely move on to the next person when he finds her and believe me he is still looking regardless of the fact he has told you that you are exclusive.

3. When he says "I don't want to hurt you
This means he is going to hurt you. He realises you like him and are invested and he is aware he is going to hurt you. Someone who wants to be with you would be telling you 'I'm not going to hurt you'. There is only a slight difference between the two phrases but the meaning of each is completely different.

5. You are more than just sex
This means you are just sex.
If he says it to you along with any of phrases 1 & 2 then you are DEFINITELY just sex. He is trying to convince you you mean more to him than just sex so that you stick around hoping for a relationship.

4. I might be ready for a relationship in the future
Yes, he will. But it won't be with you. If he wanted you to be his girlfriend, you already would be.

The Hard, Cold Facts:

If he wants you long term, you will know. Even shy men or men with commitment problems will not want to risk losing the woman they see as special above all others. So you will know.

If you are in a casual relationship or he is reluctant to commit and you want more the only solution is to walk away. If you stay, he will continue using you, and will value you less and less as time goes on. The only possible way for him to change his mind about you is to remove yourself from the equation.

If he has ishoos, it's not sexy, it's not a challenge, it's not a sign that you were destined to save him and win his love. It's a sign he will make a shitty partner, shitty father and shitty person to invest in. There is nothing sexier than a grown assed man with his shit together.

If he sends mixed messages, blows hot and cold, makes you feel unsure about what he wants and you find yourself posting on Mumsnet or Googling to try an figure out what he is thinking...RUN AWAY. It's not meant to be that complicated and a man that truly cares about how you feel is never going to make you wonder where you stand.

Never, ever, ever, ever underestimate the lengths a man will go to for sex. I hate to tarnish all men with that brush because they ain't all like it, but there are a scary proportion of men (younger ones especially) that will do anything to get sex off you. Espeically if it's good sex. They will jump on a plane, pay for expensive dates, stand outside your window singing Barry Manilow. And this ain't love. It's lust -and it means NOTHING except they really, really want to bang you.

Men, especially the younger and unevolved ones all have a strategy they have evolved to catch women. The good looking, charming ones might sweep you off your feet and you can see those coming - watch out for the underdog that wins you over by telling you a sob story about his alcoholic mother and how much he feels a "connection" with you. They're the worst, you never see them coming.

A good relationship makes you feel totally fullfilled. You don't wonder how they feel about you or why they haven't returned a message or why they didn't make plans for the weekend with you yet. They make you a priority and there's no grey area.

If he is up and down, hot and cold and all over you one minute leaving you confused the next then he is a prick. Without question. He's not scared, he's not busy, he's not anything- but a prick. Walk away, because he likes you...as an OPTION.

If he is still on dating sites logging on "just to check" after 12 dates or more...he is looking for someone better.

If he doesn't message or call you much one day but you notice he's been "online" quite a lot while telling you he is busy - then he is talking to someone else, a new prospect or perhaps someone else he has on the backburner.

Women and men are generally different in that we tend to bond more quickly /decide on one person -whereas they like to keep their options open. Never, ever, ever allow yourself to bond to a man before he's made it clear he's decided he wants you and only you.

If he is a bad boyfriend at the very start, he will be a thousand times worse by the time you have been with him a while and the honeymoon period is over.

If he doesn't make time to see you most weekends or ask you to meet his friends and family and be keen to meet yours or plan things to do together in advance or show in practical actions that he sees you as someone he wants to integtate into his life - they forget his words - his actions say it all.

We teach them how to treat us. So teach him that you are worth all the diamonds on earth by having boundaries in place to accept absolutely zero disrespect, selfishness or mind fuck behavior and he will either move on to the next person who is willing to accept his crap (making room for Mr Right to walk into yours) or he will look at you, realise what a strong, self respecting woman you are and realise that he had better step up his game. Either way you are a winner.

You never, ever, ever, ever, ever have anything to lose from walking away from a man who is giving you less than 100%. If he comes after you - you will be able to take back your power and he will know that he has to value and respect you to keep you. If he doesn't come after you - you will find someone better.

So: 'The problem lies a few months in. When you see things you didnt see before and they decide they dont like you anymore.'

Has this happened to you in every single one of your relationships? Or just some of them?

I've had more than several relationships with people that didn't last longer than a few months. All including sex and intimacy and good feeling and then 'oh, I've changed my mind about this.' So. It. Goes. I've been the ender and the endee in those situations and usually a few months in no one is going to be heartbroken about it.

Someone not wanting to be with you is usually about them and their choices, not about you. Or, when it is about you, and they tell precisely why, you get to make a judgement call on whether they've criticised you for something valid (to take an example at random: you don't communicate very well, or you lose your temper very easily - and they're correct, not gaslighting or manipulating you) or not-valid (your hair isn't right or they don't like your shoes or your best friend spends too much time round at yours.)

And then you can proceed accordingly, either by working on relationship skills or by being relieved that they're no longer in your life.

314 - bring forward the conversation! Have it on date three. Doesn't have to be 'do you want to marry me' just 'is this a thing?'

It has happened in most of them. But to be fair I should have dumped them first in hindsight.

One was very disrespectful and I should have ended it but instead I fought him over his behaviour a few months later rather than walking away.

One guy (the one I talked about earlier) dumped me for my tastes in music and film...covering up the fact he was cheating.

I have been cheated on alot.

I've only had 3 boyfriends and a couple of short termers and been cheated on by most of those.

I think if there was less societal pressure on people to be coupled up long term. Then fewer people would have it as their goal. Fewer people would be trying to fit the wrong partner in that box. Fewer people would spout the crap about wanting that when they don't and telling people what they want to hear(or they are socialised to want to hear).
I think promises and looking to the future will always lead to disappointed. Live in the moment. Replace old school dating with just meeting people with out expectations.

A man knows within the first few minutes if she's just for sex or for a relationship.

If a man wants a long term relationship with a woman, then she will know. She will not question his motives.
If you find yourself questioning his motives then he sees you for sex only.

They will jump on a plane, pay for expensive dates, stand outside your window singing Barry Manilow. And this ain't love. It's lust -and it means NOTHING except they really, really want to bang you.

THIS. Took me a long time to realise this one (and most of the others on the list). Spent a loooong time [cringes at the memory] trailing after the wrong guys, most of them exhibiting some level of twattishness...wondered what I was doing wrong and why I always ended up with Daniel Cleaver instead of Mark Darcy.

Then I went on one last internet date and met my DH. And he behaved like a human. I knew where I stood. I knew he loved me without having him say it like a performing monkey. No bullshit. It was...easy. And it made me very glad indeed that it never worked out with all of the twattish guys.

A man knows within the first few minutes if she's just for sex or for a relationship.

How is that possible?

Read your link Robinsons, was very good

Regards what you said earlier...

Hmmm...

I have been single a lot. Healed from painful losses, breakups and to be honest I am really, really ready to just enjoy life right now. I am happy to spend time healing from losses of people I loved who loved me, but not going to devote another moment of my life to mourning an idiot who already wated one of my good years. He's not worth the bother and when I realised that it was all about preventing a recurrence than "healing".

I've not lost anything worth having.

My anger, mainly, is at my time being wasted. So not going to waste more of it. Although I do know what you are saying

I'm not crying, depressed or looking for anyone to fill a void in me. And I don't hate men. I am actually feeling sort of empowered for the first time in ages

You meet a man, and he is dead keen to take you out. You're not sure, but over time you observe him and he seems very nice, and also dead keen on you (and who doesn't like that) so you let him in slowly, get to know him and build a level os esteem for him.

That is a big problem, right there from the start.

You allowed him to talk/flatter you into something you were unsure about. No wonder you feel resentful when he then turns around and ends it, or acts like a dick until you do.

Decide what YOU want first. Don't be flattered or talked around. Without the flattery and the love bombing, would you still be interested in him as a person?

The important thing is how YOU feel - not how you think he feels.

As for a man knowing in minutes whether a woman is worth a relationship, that doesn't even make sense...?

Arsenaltide, how to test that quickly?
So tedious waiting weeks for it to become clearer

I was thinking overnight about this and I do think it only applies to a very specific prt of the population.

For me, these men re the ones with personality disorders, narcissism, sociaopaths etc. Which makeup a very real chunk of the population and are most likely found in the world of online dating. Aside from the 6% of men that have full blow narcissistic personality disorder, a much larger portion have narcisisstic tendencies.

My brother is a great example. A largely good person who mostly does the right thing, has a good job, looks after Mum and Dad and is a good father - he just is very selfish. He manipulates. He likes people for what they can give him and then discards and in terms of women and dating he would just do or say whatever was required to get what he wants. And he'd do all of this without "bad" intentions and whilst appearing like the underdog and a cute, insecure guy but he is just missing an integrity chip.

Identifying men like this in the early stages of dating is difficult. TheStoic you told me to watch out for "love bombing" and it's so easy to roll that out as a "red flag" but it can equally just be a sign of a good man who's mad about you, and the two best relationships I hve ever had started off that way.

I am fine with men that hotly pursue me, and I have no problem with men who "grow" on me. Actually this is how I work -I can't feel attraction for someone I don't know.

But if a man has a personality disorder, selfishness, narcissistic tendencies, intentions towards you as just a shag - that will very much become apparent in his treatment of you once he gets you.

He will show it simply by doing less than he did during the chase phase, or less that makes you happy and managing down your expectations and causing you to question.

The key really is consistency.

I have n problem with a man who chases me and tries to make me happy -I just have a problem with one who stops doing that when he gets me. For me that is the actual red flag.

I sit here now thinking of all the lovely "normal", dates and relatiosnhips I have had with great men, normal men, average men. Even idiots or arseholes or one that didn't fancy me and they were nothing like the ones I am writing about here.

The ones I am writing about here are the ones that made you feel deeply, deeply confused. Even a garden variety arsehole does not make you feel that. He might make you cry or get angry - but this is a diferrent thing.

I know makeitreal the last man I went out with, I genuinely couldn't tell if he was future-faking or if he was a discerning man who recognised how lucky he was to have found me!!! We got on very well. We enjoyed each other's company. We were very attracted to each other. I'm clever I'm fun I'm well-adjusted, so what's not to like? My self-esteem is healthy.

But I knew that there was a question about which of the two it really was! so I didn't take his plans for later in the year as being Plans For Later In The Year, I interpreted as him believing he was keen, right in that moment. And that's what it turned out to be, keeness in that MOMENT, no more really. But I'm not upset. It didn't really get to the point where it felt real for me. Hard to explain. He was very gentlemanly in that he always showed up when he said he would, texted if he was going to be 10 minutes late to my house.

314, I genuinely could not tell either.

The three I have had this problem with were very different, but all the same as well. In that they didn't know waht they want.

The first one, was I think perhaps borderline sociopath because he just seemed to enjoy tricking / duping and manipulating as he had no real care about anyone else. If you called him out on it he would give you the silent treatment. I admit I never got deeply emotionally attached to this one, but more like I was just genuinely confused over why he spent so much time chasing me just to play with me.

The second one was nicer, genuinely a good person but I think he just had doubts about whether he wnated a relationship with me (or one at all) so he would do behaviors like hot and cold and logging onto dating sites but he also treatedfell me well generally. But ultimately, he wasn't sure about me and I felt that. Funnily...a year later he still phones me and has recently said he feels he made a mistake and we were a good couple. I kindly told him I'd moved on.

The third one was perhaps narcissisti tendencies but botomline very manipulative and wanted me to be his friend with benefits so he could chase other women, all the while denying that and making me feel like I was the one with the problem. This one hurt the worst as I genuinely fell for him and thought he had too.

The key issues was.

I was investing, they weren't.

And yes...ALL MY FAULT.

I should never hve invested in anyone who was blowing hot and cold or wasn't meeting my needs in full.

Now i understand the hot and cold games, no one will ever play them with me again.

In each case I was suckered in by a sob story, and a belief they were mad about me but for some reason afrad to love.

I realise falling for this bullshit is completely my own fault, but it does just come from being a generally tusting and kind person who believes what people say.

I think that is why you just have to be a bit ruthless.

have the firm boundaries

Listen to actions not words

Don't feel sory for anyone in a dating situation. If they ave issues or fears that's fine, be patient, but don't allow them to use it as an excuse for anything at all. Its not.

No matter how bad your issues are you can commit to a relationship with soeone if you want to

I should never have invested in anyone who was blowing hot and cold or wasn't meeting my needs in full.

Which of course includes when our needs are for a quick shag and nothing more. If they're pushing for a Relationship and that's not what you need at that time, you're just as right to walk away.

There's nothing wrong with 'love bombing' in itself.

But it should never make you change your mind, or make up your mind, about what you are going to do next. Especially if you are not already convinced that moving things forward is what you absolutely want.

What they say about how they feel about you should only matter when you have already decided you are keen to see where things go.

Sob stories turn me off. I have my shit together so i want the same in a man.

Sob stories turn me off. I have my shit together so i want the same in a man

Absolutely. There is not much that's less attractive, especially in the early dating stages.

Oh god....the guy Ive got hung up on is non stop sob stories.

Bin him now then! Especially if he's using those to justify any of the other things described on this thread!

That's a lot of massive generalisations about men you've got going on there OP. Male friends of mine who have done OLD will say exactly the same about women.

Most people are decent.

And yes. I have done OLD. Yes I found most men to be decent. Yes I have had done wankers. Yes I have met a lovely man (3 years and counting)

He binned me ages ago....and yes he did use them to justify before he waltzed off with a new gf after using me :(

Yes honestly, agree sob stories...massive red flag.

I know people with actual sob stories...and theyd not tell them on a date or use them as a way to excuse crappy behavior.

Not sure why people keep mentioning this is a generalisation about men and most men are decent. I've said that probably 50 times. I'm not talking about the decent ones. The decent ones don't do any of the behaviors mentioned in the OP. the decent ones don't require a manual to operate them.