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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Ok ladies....roll up...my observations on dating after learning the hard way

328 replies

MakingItReal · 16/02/2016 15:00

Right, I have been dating for a few years now and I see the same problems come up over and over again - causing us unknown strife and heartache. I know there are exceptions to every rule - but in my experience and in every case I know the following is absolutely true:

Translating what he says

1. If a man says he is not looking for a relationship
THEN HE IS NOT LOOKING FOR A RELATIONSHIP. He's not going to fall in love with you and change his mind. He enjoys your company and all the free sex he has already decided that you are NOT going to be a long term relationship for him.

2. If a man says he is not looking for a relationship part 2
He is keeping his options open so that he can freely move on to the next person when he finds her and believe me he is still looking regardless of the fact he has told you that you are exclusive.

3. When he says "I don't want to hurt you
This means he is going to hurt you. He realises you like him and are invested and he is aware he is going to hurt you. Someone who wants to be with you would be telling you 'I'm not going to hurt you'. There is only a slight difference between the two phrases but the meaning of each is completely different.

5. You are more than just sex
This means you are just sex.
If he says it to you along with any of phrases 1 & 2 then you are DEFINITELY just sex. He is trying to convince you you mean more to him than just sex so that you stick around hoping for a relationship.

4. I might be ready for a relationship in the future
Yes, he will. But it won't be with you. If he wanted you to be his girlfriend, you already would be.

The Hard, Cold Facts:

If he wants you long term, you will know. Even shy men or men with commitment problems will not want to risk losing the woman they see as special above all others. So you will know.

If you are in a casual relationship or he is reluctant to commit and you want more the only solution is to walk away. If you stay, he will continue using you, and will value you less and less as time goes on. The only possible way for him to change his mind about you is to remove yourself from the equation.

If he has ishoos, it's not sexy, it's not a challenge, it's not a sign that you were destined to save him and win his love. It's a sign he will make a shitty partner, shitty father and shitty person to invest in. There is nothing sexier than a grown assed man with his shit together.

If he sends mixed messages, blows hot and cold, makes you feel unsure about what he wants and you find yourself posting on Mumsnet or Googling to try an figure out what he is thinking...RUN AWAY. It's not meant to be that complicated and a man that truly cares about how you feel is never going to make you wonder where you stand.

Never, ever, ever, ever underestimate the lengths a man will go to for sex. I hate to tarnish all men with that brush because they ain't all like it, but there are a scary proportion of men (younger ones especially) that will do anything to get sex off you. Espeically if it's good sex. They will jump on a plane, pay for expensive dates, stand outside your window singing Barry Manilow. And this ain't love. It's lust -and it means NOTHING except they really, really want to bang you.

Men, especially the younger and unevolved ones all have a strategy they have evolved to catch women. The good looking, charming ones might sweep you off your feet and you can see those coming - watch out for the underdog that wins you over by telling you a sob story about his alcoholic mother and how much he feels a "connection" with you. They're the worst, you never see them coming.

A good relationship makes you feel totally fullfilled. You don't wonder how they feel about you or why they haven't returned a message or why they didn't make plans for the weekend with you yet. They make you a priority and there's no grey area.

If he is up and down, hot and cold and all over you one minute leaving you confused the next then he is a prick. Without question. He's not scared, he's not busy, he's not anything- but a prick. Walk away, because he likes you...as an OPTION.

If he is still on dating sites logging on "just to check" after 12 dates or more...he is looking for someone better.

If he doesn't message or call you much one day but you notice he's been "online" quite a lot while telling you he is busy - then he is talking to someone else, a new prospect or perhaps someone else he has on the backburner.

Women and men are generally different in that we tend to bond more quickly /decide on one person -whereas they like to keep their options open. Never, ever, ever allow yourself to bond to a man before he's made it clear he's decided he wants you and only you.

If he is a bad boyfriend at the very start, he will be a thousand times worse by the time you have been with him a while and the honeymoon period is over.

If he doesn't make time to see you most weekends or ask you to meet his friends and family and be keen to meet yours or plan things to do together in advance or show in practical actions that he sees you as someone he wants to integtate into his life - they forget his words - his actions say it all.

We teach them how to treat us. So teach him that you are worth all the diamonds on earth by having boundaries in place to accept absolutely zero disrespect, selfishness or mind fuck behavior and he will either move on to the next person who is willing to accept his crap (making room for Mr Right to walk into yours) or he will look at you, realise what a strong, self respecting woman you are and realise that he had better step up his game. Either way you are a winner.

You never, ever, ever, ever, ever have anything to lose from walking away from a man who is giving you less than 100%. If he comes after you - you will be able to take back your power and he will know that he has to value and respect you to keep you. If he doesn't come after you - you will find someone better.

OP posts:
MakingItReal · 16/02/2016 22:25

Claraoswald36
Thats exactly the right thing he did though Clara....the problem is th ones who now they are going to hurt you, say they don't want to and then do it anyway. When someone says they don't want to hurt you, they do have some inkling they are going to -so they can either seflishly continue or go away and leave you alone! For sur the next time a man says that to me I am going to stop seeing him. Unless he can say "I won't hurt you" then it's a wanring sign for me

OP posts:
DeeDee47 · 16/02/2016 22:26

Great writing making it real and Robinson

Making it real I've been where you are only last November,only to be dumped by text....i still have questions,I wont get answers.
And Robinson,I agree to last post re the training might not just lie with the man

springydaffs · 16/02/2016 22:27

Real is suggesting the opposite of training men. She is saying: don't hang around. Go. Move on.

What men do about that is irrelevant - she won't be there to see it.

SoThatHappened · 16/02/2016 22:29

He would send me the valentines cards, and plan trips away for my birthday and if I was upset he would drive the 40 minutes to my house to cheer me up, and he would hold me in his sleep and he did come and stand outside my house when I ended it...but the point was...he was doing all of that to keep banging me. Because he loved banging me. But because of factors I knew nothing about, he had long since ruled me out as wife material and he saw me in a very diferent way to how I saw him.

Mine did none of that and I am still stupid enough to think he liked me and we might have a chance. :(

SeaCreature · 16/02/2016 22:31

Thanks for these. Wish I had something like this when I was younger as it would have spared me years of heart ache. I've slowly been learning the same as you the hard way too.

I'm interested though OP on your views on a man who always texts. I've started seeing a guy who texts and he's been consistent too but never rings. I've put this down the fact that he's very shy so probably finds it easier to text. However I'm finding the whole texting thing difficult as I can't really get to know him this way.

SoThatHappened · 16/02/2016 22:32

Oh yes that's exactly it...sleeping with someone in a situation you don't really want to be in. But you keep on doing it because you're getting a little of what you want, hoping the rest will come

Yup. Guilty of that. :(

He used me until he got a gf he did want.

springydaffs · 16/02/2016 22:37

I'm guilty of not calling. I really don't like talking on the phone - unless it's 'meet you under the clock at 8'. Hence texting.

I'd much rather meet, face to face.

RobinsonsSquash · 16/02/2016 22:54

Training men is from a post the OP made on the first page..

DeeDee47 · 16/02/2016 22:57

Yes Robinson but on your last message re sleeping with them...you said that the training dident always lie with the man,which I agreed with you

MakingItReal · 16/02/2016 23:00

By the way nothing in my posts is about training men, it's about training ourselves to not tolerate behavior that is disrespectful and less than loving.

OP posts:
MakingItReal · 16/02/2016 23:05

I think the main point is this.

If the message is mixed, if there is any confusion AT ALL, that is generally for one of two reasons.

  1. The other person isn't sure what they want
  1. The other person isn't being honest

9 times out of 10 I think it's proved for me to be the latter. And the motivation is always simply that they want to keep seeing you, enjoying sex with you and they are doing the bare minimum to keep you from walking out the door.

It's about learning that, learning that this never ever, ever means they love you but they are too scared. It always means they are just trying to have their cake and eat it and they are looking for something better and not that into you.

Once you learn that, it becomes so much easier to just leave and save yourself months or years trying to understand someone

OP posts:
Patheticfallacy · 16/02/2016 23:10

I agree mostly. But my lovely boyfriend of ten months sometimes just doesn't check his messages for hours and hours. He's not ignoring me or playing games. At the start he'd take a day to reply. There was stuff going on in his life at the time, he wasn't a player, he just isn't a big phone person. He's incredibly genuine and honest but I could easily have dismissed him as not being into me at the outset if I'd followed these rules.

Patheticfallacy · 16/02/2016 23:11

Though with him, there were never mixed messages. He never cancelled or rearranged a date. So I guess I knew he was for real that way.

MakingItReal · 16/02/2016 23:13

Seacreature, I am sure there are exceptions to every rule - but without fail every single player, arsehole, commitment phobe or guy who wasn't that into me absolutely never phoned me. Not once.

The ones who were serious about me, and even the ones who turned out to be decent guys I went on to stay friends with simple picked up the phone.

I am sure there are people who hate picking up the phone, but I suppose it comes in conjuction with everything else.

The last complete idiot I dated did a lot of wonderful things and was good with kid and was nice in a lot of ways and seemed dead keen - but he never once phoned me. I noticed he was also always online - and I think certain men (women too actually) love doing that.

Sitting there all day and night texting people and it is an easy way to fake comunicate. You feel like you're getting to know someone but you're really not.

I'd be looking at various things...like with my ex he was always online on whatsapp. If a guy is going that...he is talking to other women!!!! Men just don't text their male mates all day long.

OP posts:
Patheticfallacy · 16/02/2016 23:17

Agree on whatsapp. My boyfriend is only ever on there to message me!
The most horrific online dating relationship I ever had was with a man who said he loved me more than he'd ever loved anyone. He never once phoned me. He was a complete arse.

DontBuyANewMumCashmere · 16/02/2016 23:22

Oh god I wish I'd read this when I was 18....
They should print this thread out and give it to girls in PSE!! Grin
Sad that so many of us have been messed around.
Thankfully there are so many men out there who aren't like this. It might take a while to find one (I met my DH when I was 29) but I'd rather be single and wait to meet a good one than be played. Again.

TheNaze73 · 16/02/2016 23:23

MrsHathaway I so wish I was joking. You can't fake niceness. Maybe that's the wrong word but, if you're genuine, respectful etc etc, it gets you nowhere. It's the faking being a twat I don't like but, needs must

Destinysdaughter · 16/02/2016 23:28

Fucking brilliant post! Should be a sticky right up there with the other one. I agree with every single word you say, and these are hard won lessons. I was just thinking today about why actions are so much more important than words and why that is, is because NO MAN will ever tell you, I'm just looking for a fuck buddy, someone I can just have sex with but I will never ever see you as something more, so how's about it? EVER! Because no woman in her right mind would agree to it. But... If he tells her, oh I really like you but I'm not in the right place for a relationship right now bla bla bla, a woman might think, oh he really likes me and the sex is great and I can change him yada yada. No you can't! Dump his sorry ass...

MakingItReal · 16/02/2016 23:39

I should definitely say I know the majority of men do absolutely none of the things listed on here and most say what they mean and don't manipulate or play with women's heads at all!

Then you suddenly meet one...whether it be at 20 or 40 and you just don't understand it. You can't comprehend why a person would want to do it or even waste their own time let alone yours so you end up trying to explain it off and manage down your expectations.

The right man is not going to require you to manage down your hopes and expectations. He is going to exceed them.

Sure there will be small things (he's not a phone person, he's not very romantic) but it's the overall package. Do you feel like his number one priority? Are you nagged with doubts? Do you feel insecure.

If you do, and you are explaining away actions and hoping for him to change then you need to refer to these rules.

And no good or decent man is ever going to disrespect your boundaries. If he doesn't call or text enough and you tell him this hurts you he will stop or he will explain why and make more of an effort. It's just that simple. People who care about how you feel and want to make you feel good will show that in most of their actions.

Dating is just not meant to be that complicated

OP posts:
MakingItReal · 16/02/2016 23:43

NO MAN will ever tell you, I'm just looking for a fuck buddy, someone I can just have sex with but I will never ever see you as something more, so how's about it? EVER! Because no woman in her right mind would agree to it. But... If he tells her, oh I really like you but I'm not in the right place for a relationship right now bla bla bla, a woman might think, oh he really likes me and the sex is great and I can change him yada yada. No you can't!

THAT is exactly it!!!!

In that situation, he has already devalued you so low as to try and trick and manipulate you into a situation he knows you would not volunarily want. You think he is going to respect you and value you enough to fall in love with you???

Umm...no!

the only chance in a million of that ever, ever happening is if you walk away, tell him you're not taking a minute of his shit, and then he might think "ah well, she isn't as big a sucker as I thought she was...maybe she's worth treating better" and then maybe, just maybe.

But sticking around taking his crap while he sleeps with you and tells you he's not in a relationship, can;t meet your friends because it's too much pressure and that it is way more than sex to him???!!! He's never going to respect you for tolerating that. You won't even respect yourself after a while. I know...I've done it!

OP posts:
springydaffs · 16/02/2016 23:56

These rules could also apply to friendships, watered down but same sentiments.

Destinysdaughter · 17/02/2016 00:15

Makingit I posted that as last year I was seeing a guy who seemed to be really into me, telling me I was beautiful, how he thought the world of me, how he needed me etc, but... He never introduced me to his friends or his kids, we never went out to dinner or to the movies or any other normal dating things, it was all about sex. Then he dumped me by text, saying he was too busy. He contacted me again this year saying sorry and would I give him another chance. I asked him outright if he wanted a relationship or just a Fuckbuddy, he admitted that was all he wanted. As much as I liked him, I couldn't agree to that and told him so. But... His previous behaviour did make sense in hindsight, since that was all he ever really wanted. And again, his words and actions didn't match. And in that situation, it's ONLY the actions that count. ALWAYS!

MakingItReal · 17/02/2016 00:23

Flowers it is just that simple...:( If he cares deeply about you and your feelings and needs you won't be feeling mixed messages between actions and words - and if you do and tlel him about it on the off chance he is just very dense, he will change it because he won't want to hurt or lose you.

OP posts:
TinklyLittleLaugh · 17/02/2016 00:46

The Naze. I find what you are saying very disconcerting. I might have been guilty of trying to save the odd bad boy. But then I hit 20 and caught on to myself. I have no time for players.

My DD1 is 20, very attractive and pursued by lots of men. Her boyfriend is a lovely, kind and decent boy. She tells me how she laughs at men in bars who try the talk-to-all-your-friends,-ignore-you,-then-provokingly-insult-you thing, because they read it off the internet once. She was recently asked for advice from a lad in her student flat who was going on a first date. She told him, "Be nice and be respectful. Girls like boys who are nice."

I think daft little girls might like bad boys, but any women with a tiny amount of sense knows to steer clear.

RobinsonsSquash · 17/02/2016 00:48

It's just not true that no woman in her right mind would ever agree to a solely sexual relationship, though.