Ok ladies....roll up...my observations on dating after learning the hard way

[MakingItReal]

Right, I have been dating for a few years now and I see the same problems come up over and over again - causing us unknown strife and heartache. I know there are exceptions to every rule - but in my experience and in every case I know the following is absolutely true:

Translating what he says

1. If a man says he is not looking for a relationship
THEN HE IS NOT LOOKING FOR A RELATIONSHIP. He's not going to fall in love with you and change his mind. He enjoys your company and all the free sex he has already decided that you are NOT going to be a long term relationship for him.

2. If a man says he is not looking for a relationship part 2
He is keeping his options open so that he can freely move on to the next person when he finds her and believe me he is still looking regardless of the fact he has told you that you are exclusive.

3. When he says "I don't want to hurt you
This means he is going to hurt you. He realises you like him and are invested and he is aware he is going to hurt you. Someone who wants to be with you would be telling you 'I'm not going to hurt you'. There is only a slight difference between the two phrases but the meaning of each is completely different.

5. You are more than just sex
This means you are just sex.
If he says it to you along with any of phrases 1 & 2 then you are DEFINITELY just sex. He is trying to convince you you mean more to him than just sex so that you stick around hoping for a relationship.

4. I might be ready for a relationship in the future
Yes, he will. But it won't be with you. If he wanted you to be his girlfriend, you already would be.

The Hard, Cold Facts:

If he wants you long term, you will know. Even shy men or men with commitment problems will not want to risk losing the woman they see as special above all others. So you will know.

If you are in a casual relationship or he is reluctant to commit and you want more the only solution is to walk away. If you stay, he will continue using you, and will value you less and less as time goes on. The only possible way for him to change his mind about you is to remove yourself from the equation.

If he has ishoos, it's not sexy, it's not a challenge, it's not a sign that you were destined to save him and win his love. It's a sign he will make a shitty partner, shitty father and shitty person to invest in. There is nothing sexier than a grown assed man with his shit together.

If he sends mixed messages, blows hot and cold, makes you feel unsure about what he wants and you find yourself posting on Mumsnet or Googling to try an figure out what he is thinking...RUN AWAY. It's not meant to be that complicated and a man that truly cares about how you feel is never going to make you wonder where you stand.

Never, ever, ever, ever underestimate the lengths a man will go to for sex. I hate to tarnish all men with that brush because they ain't all like it, but there are a scary proportion of men (younger ones especially) that will do anything to get sex off you. Espeically if it's good sex. They will jump on a plane, pay for expensive dates, stand outside your window singing Barry Manilow. And this ain't love. It's lust -and it means NOTHING except they really, really want to bang you.

Men, especially the younger and unevolved ones all have a strategy they have evolved to catch women. The good looking, charming ones might sweep you off your feet and you can see those coming - watch out for the underdog that wins you over by telling you a sob story about his alcoholic mother and how much he feels a "connection" with you. They're the worst, you never see them coming.

A good relationship makes you feel totally fullfilled. You don't wonder how they feel about you or why they haven't returned a message or why they didn't make plans for the weekend with you yet. They make you a priority and there's no grey area.

If he is up and down, hot and cold and all over you one minute leaving you confused the next then he is a prick. Without question. He's not scared, he's not busy, he's not anything- but a prick. Walk away, because he likes you...as an OPTION.

If he is still on dating sites logging on "just to check" after 12 dates or more...he is looking for someone better.

If he doesn't message or call you much one day but you notice he's been "online" quite a lot while telling you he is busy - then he is talking to someone else, a new prospect or perhaps someone else he has on the backburner.

Women and men are generally different in that we tend to bond more quickly /decide on one person -whereas they like to keep their options open. Never, ever, ever allow yourself to bond to a man before he's made it clear he's decided he wants you and only you.

If he is a bad boyfriend at the very start, he will be a thousand times worse by the time you have been with him a while and the honeymoon period is over.

If he doesn't make time to see you most weekends or ask you to meet his friends and family and be keen to meet yours or plan things to do together in advance or show in practical actions that he sees you as someone he wants to integtate into his life - they forget his words - his actions say it all.

We teach them how to treat us. So teach him that you are worth all the diamonds on earth by having boundaries in place to accept absolutely zero disrespect, selfishness or mind fuck behavior and he will either move on to the next person who is willing to accept his crap (making room for Mr Right to walk into yours) or he will look at you, realise what a strong, self respecting woman you are and realise that he had better step up his game. Either way you are a winner.

You never, ever, ever, ever, ever have anything to lose from walking away from a man who is giving you less than 100%. If he comes after you - you will be able to take back your power and he will know that he has to value and respect you to keep you. If he doesn't come after you - you will find someone better.

This is in a book already. Good advice

SoThat, best to move on and stop being hung up over him then, and avoid falling for his like again!

SoThat, best to move on and stop being hung up over him then, and avoid falling for his like again!

I can't stop though....head over to the thread on here: breaking the mental connection.

Now that I really think about it, there were a hell of a lot more sob stories that didnt seem at face values to be sob stories.

He went on holiday with his ex to see her family who had emigrated long ago. He told me on date one that he went on this holiday. Nice story to tell on principle as long as you edit the ex part for a first date. Not only did he NOT edit the part about it being with an ex, the only thing he told me about the holiday is that it was a holiday with his ex to see her family and that he didnt get to do any touristy stuff because it was a family holiday.

That didnt seem like a red flag at the time...but it is. He even complained about a long haul holiday as he didnt get to do what he wanted. From the destination itself, I can tell you he would have seen alot and had a good time. Beaches, national parks, a new city to discover, a good climate. Even if he didnt get to travel around and do touristy things, he still would have seen alot and I wouldnt turn down a holiday like that and would bloody make the most of it.

I mean think about it....what a story. I went this country BUT it was just with my ex and a family holiday and I didnt get to do any touristy stuff. WTF. Poor little petal, it is all about him isnt it.

Sob stories all the bloody way now I think about it.

What she shoud have done was say I went to this country and I saw this, this and this, and I did this and this. But no. He can only see what he didnt get out of it and that is quite bad. He'll always think of himself and focus on what he didnt get and not on the positive.

I didn't just say that most men are decent. I said that there are also lots of arsehole women OLD too.

And I haven't "kept" mentioning it. I only saw this thread half an hour ago

I honestly think that if your overwhelming experience of OLD is bad, it's time to rethink

I think *tilidie (can't bring myself to actually type that word out) probably has a point.

I am trying to think of a way women can determine that before wasting their time.

Difficult.

bitout I didn't mean you kept mentioning, I said people did. You're not the first to say it but I thought it was obvious from the content that it wouldn't apply to men unless they were arseholes.

Also, as a side note, my counsellor recommended to me a book for recovering from abusive relationships with narcissists, sociopaths and other toxic people and I just got to page 53 where it talks about sex.

It describes how a person like this sets about building you up, idealising you, playing a role of everything you want so you come to a point of extreme trust, spiritual and emotional closeness and then they pull away to make you feel confused, desperate and needy. In the first phase they can;t get enough of you and then once they have you hooked they begin the mind games.

It says this:

Sx with someone like this is no different than rape. you unknowingly formed a bond with a con artist. Your consent was based on a lie

And someone a few pages back told me to "get a grip" when I said I felt this way and suggested the problems was with me. Be careful of insulting the sanity of those who have been through an emotionally abusive relationship because unless you have - you have no idea how it feels and a person who has been through that has already questioned their own sanity.

This is about someone who manipulated you into forming a powerful attachment to them, and then knocked you down.

Being tricked into sex is not a great deal better than being forced into it. Either way you feel extremely dirty and extremely low about yourself afterwards.

HelpfulChap

I have no problem whatsoever with a man having sex with me and deciding afterwards he doesn't want to see me, or that he sees me as a FWB or that he doesn't feel a click with me or view me as a potential relationship.

Rejection hurts, but it's an honest exchange.

I go through the same uncertainty myself. I have no idea if I see a man as a potential relationship or not until I go through the dating phase which exists as a discovery period and I might change my mind or go back and forth.

I would always tell a man if I did not see a long term future with him as soon as I felt that way.

The problem is more when you are stuck in a situation with someone who is using you, but you're not able to clearly see it - because they are sending confusing mixed signals to you.

That can boil down to them being a bit selfish, a bit half-half about you, a bit of a player keeping his options open or him being a full blown personality disorded toxic individual.

Either way though, it's not someone you want to date.

I have just caught up with the thread, and wow, lots of food for thought here - very interesting.

I started OLD only three months ago and I find it to be a tough world. Lots of options available to everyone and meeting after only a bit of a chat all while remaining anonymous certainly makes it a bit hard to navigate. I agree with everyone saying you need a thick skin, firm boundaries, good self-esteem and a talent for red-flag spotting.

As a naive, rom-com addict, late 20s single woman with a very loud ticking clock, the above is not really natural to me so I am currently working on treating dating as a potential joint-venture more than the beginning of "happily ever after"...

I tried to analyze what happened with the last guy I dated and thought I would share to ask for your opinions (waves to dating thread pals).
We met on OKC, he has roughly the same life as me (similar job, ambitions, age...).

Pre-meeting: he was very easy to talk to, the chat was light and breezy and after just one evening of online chatting we moved to text.
Looking back: his messages were pretty much all about him, he did not really try to get to know me.

Date 1: I was stood up the day before by another date and went there with zero expectations. I was in a really good "nothing to lose" state of mind (I think). So I was pleasantly surprised when he was nice, fun and attractive. Said his long term goal was to settle down. We talked for four hours and he walked me home. Gave me a quick good night kiss.
Looking back: he was insistent on "having zero expectations" and I thought to myself it was great we were on the same page. I now think he was warning me this was just for fun.

Date 2: he was really affectionate, snogging happened and and after a good five hours out, I brought him back to my place. He stayed for the night but we agreed on no sex.
Looking back: I cannot spot a red-flag here. It was all very easy and fun.

Date 3: same as date 2, I felt very comfortable around him. I let my guard down and opened up about the shitstorm I was going through at the time.
Looking back: i must have looked needy but i would not change that. If you cannot say what is going on in your head with someone you are ok to share a bed with, it would really suck. (Right?) am not talking sob story or whining.

Those three dates were all 10 days apart because of my schedule. He was maybe a bit too comfortable with that now that I think of it.

Date 4: I agreed to meet him in a town about 4h from where we live and spend two days there with him. Mammoth date if you want. It was all great until 1) I discovered he was very recently single (not what he had said), 2) told me out of the blue that "us being on that date did not mean anything" and 3) said "he has so far jumped from a relationship to another and did not want that anymore"
Looking back: he took me for a fun mix between a travel buddy and a fuck buddy.

I ended it after date 4. I do need to practice those red-flag spotting skills, don't I? Anything else you would have seen?
(Sorry for epic post)

JollyChristmas It sounds like you have it about right.

I think on the first few dates it's just discovery, and if during those dates hey say anything about not wanting a relationship or handing out disclaimers that can be used later against you - don't waste a single second.

My rules though, for me personally, are more about once you've gotten past all that. Once you have been through the dates and everything is going well and then the mind games begin. Hot and cold, not wanting to take their dating profile down, not wanting to invite you to things as their girlfriends - and for me I think it's about remembering those things and those behaviors tell you everyhting you need to know.

But most importantly, not to invest until you know you both want the same from the situation, both are on the same page and there's no confusion / no hot and cold and no silly games.

Investing before that based on words where actions don't match in the belief I will be the exception to the rule has been my problem!

Jolly you shouldn't have shared a bed with him or brought him back to yours so soon. You don't know him. Shouldn't have opened up about your stuffso soon. You don't know him and it's about self preservation to keep things back . You shouldn't have travelled four hours to meet him nor stay for a weekend. You don't know him. All too much too soon. Dating is for getting to know them and weeding out. The ones who genuinely want to be with you will take it at your pace, three months is good for just dating. If they are still around after that then they must be into you.

making holding back when in the first few months usually weeds out time wasters. Don't be a last minute date. Have a life. If he is into you for real, you will know it.

Just popping on again to say that Jolly I don't think there's much else you could have done there - as soon as he said stuff that didn't fit with your expectations/needs, you got out. Is as it should be.

It's a massive waste of everyone's time trying to prescribe when one should spend the night with someone, or take them home, or arrange to go travelling with them. Time limits on that stuff are arbitrary.

Do what feels comfortable and fun until it doesn't.

I disagree. It's better to hold back until you have been dating properly so you know them better. I would not have some stranger stay at my house in my bed on the second date. Nor travel to stay with them and have a sex weekend on the third date. Taking it slower means you don't go through the angst of finding out they only wanted you for sex. Most decent blokes will date you and respect your boundaries if they are wanting a relationship too.

Ive had great relationship with people I took months to sleep with and people I slept with on the first date. Great relationships with people who were dead keen at first and ones who grew on me over friendship. Great relationships that lasted only a month with men who later ended things but I am still friendly with and enjoyed the time with. Great relationships with men who planned great dated and ones who were crap. Great relationships with men who called loads and obsessively texted me and great ones with men who never texted at all.

The big one, main thing that always set apart the bad relationships was I FELT UNSURE WHERE I STOOD

Simply that.

They behaved in ways that were confusing.

THAT is when it's not taking it slow or getting to know each other. THAT feeling where you're looking at your phone or feeling hurt and worried and questioning yourself is for me personally the one situation where absolutely without question the guy was dicking me around.

Thank you Making and Robinsons for your feedback. The pre-relationship phase is definitely the discovery phase, I went in there wearing my heart on my sleeve instead of wearing bullshit detecting goggles. This is all a learning curve.

Mill perhaps I should have put a "slut disclaimer" on my post but I will keep in bring a guy to my place for sex, or not for sex, if I feel like it. I do not think there is a "magic timeframe" to have sex with someone you like. Three months will not make a difference if he is not that into you in the first place, in fact I think the thrill of the chase may even attract more twisted types, all while you slowly develop feelings. Recipe for disaster in my opinion. And it is not because you equate sex with relationship that a man will automatically do it too.

Point being, I like to think I am the prize, not my fanjo.

FWIW the guy I was talking about was I think into me, as in he was not just there for the sex. He liked hanging out with me, no doubt about that. He just did not want any commitment at all, as in I was never going to be his girlfriend. And he has narcissistic tendencies. I wish I had seen before that overall he was not the type of guy I am looking for. Which I would have known had I conducted my own due diligence.

And making that guy started the hot and cold thing after date 4, just before I ended it, so your analysis is spot on.

I am the same with sex Jolly. I have it when I feel like it. Sometimes that is a one night stand if I fancy it. Of the three men who led me to write this thread - one of which I never even slept with - it made no difference anyway.

I agree men don't necessarily just want sex, sometimes they want cuddles, fun trips, attention btu if they're not in it to form a lasting bond and that's what you want you did the right thing. 4 dates doesn't seem like a wasted effort, I dont believe in getting so jaded that you can't give people a chance.

The hot and cold thing is absolutely satan's curse. Once it happens even once..leave!

if he is a narcissist...expect to hear from him again!!! They hate being dumped!

Mine treated me appalingly and he acts like he is dying without me. If h got me back, he'd do the same again but worse.

Toxic people prey on those who are trusting, so it's about learning to only trust people who earn it. The absolutely central pillars of who you should trust should also surely be based on them being consistent, predictable, caring towards you consistenly. Cnsistency is key for me!

any guy who realy, truly likes me just has never blown cold - or if he has he has messaged first and told me he'd be quiet a few days. It's just basic consideration and you'd never, ever risk doing that with a woman you wer scared of losing!

Millliii - it might be better for you but it's definitely not better for me, so probably best if you don't generalise from your own preferences on that one I think.

I think a large part of what makes it so hard is the sweet shop mentality. Twatty men can keep doing the first four dates over and over, the thrill of the chase. But never ever getting past that point.

And written instruction not to invest in a man is one thing written down. But if I get to the point where I'm even considering thinking of him in that way, considering sleeping with him, hoping it will become something, then I am invested. If I'm not invested I wouldn't bother going out with him, or considering him, hoping etc.... So ''don't invest'' is confusing advice to follow.

I follow all of the rules though. Just because they work better for me. I don't even want to have sex if I don't know where I stand because it wouldn't be enjoyable, so what would be the point.

I know how hard it is not to invest 314. Part of that is down to just being a genuine person who forms genuine attachments. Maybe the trick is to stop investing...withdraw from the bank, once you see signs he's playing silly games.

Yes, you are right about consistency. In the last months, I have never been past the dating stage, but it seems a good criteria to sort out time-wasters from those who are relationship material (whatever the level of investment you put behind the word "relationship", wedding&kids&white picket fence, companionship or short term).

I know 4 dates was not too much of an investment in terms of time (one month and a half) but I went very quickly from zero expectations to projecting a lot on him (Xmas time and rom-coms and ticking biological clock and all..). So more an emotional waste.

I don't now about you Jolly but I am not so worried about whee it's going or the future rather than being treated consistently well by whoever I am dating NOW. Be that for a week, month or year.

If I feel he is hot and cold, it's not fun.

If he doesn't want a relationship - hardly any point getting to know him more.

Oh and Making he is a narcissist but he is also very proud. I am not sure his ego survived being dumped because he did not pursue me.

To be fair, I did not cut him loose completely, I said I needed time on my own and would get back in touch when the time comes. Which I did a month and a half later. So far it has been a couple of half hearted messages and guess what? Blowing hot (asking me on a date but for the same evening) and cold (texts come with at least a 2 days long gap). The difference is that I know where I stand with him now. True that I first saw it as a second chance because the first time was heavily influenced by my own personal drama, but now I do see he is just not the right guy for me.

Argh, keep x-posting with you Making!

Living the moment and not living for the end game one has in mind is a healthy way to look at things. I am slowly getting there!

It helps if it's not on your own agenda. If I was in a rush to get married and have babies I'd find it hard! But I'm not so m just looking as every relationship as bing whatever it is. I just want it to make me happy and enhance my life really.