Ok ladies....roll up...my observations on dating after learning the hard way

[MakingItReal]

Right, I have been dating for a few years now and I see the same problems come up over and over again - causing us unknown strife and heartache. I know there are exceptions to every rule - but in my experience and in every case I know the following is absolutely true:

Translating what he says

1. If a man says he is not looking for a relationship
THEN HE IS NOT LOOKING FOR A RELATIONSHIP. He's not going to fall in love with you and change his mind. He enjoys your company and all the free sex he has already decided that you are NOT going to be a long term relationship for him.

2. If a man says he is not looking for a relationship part 2
He is keeping his options open so that he can freely move on to the next person when he finds her and believe me he is still looking regardless of the fact he has told you that you are exclusive.

3. When he says "I don't want to hurt you
This means he is going to hurt you. He realises you like him and are invested and he is aware he is going to hurt you. Someone who wants to be with you would be telling you 'I'm not going to hurt you'. There is only a slight difference between the two phrases but the meaning of each is completely different.

5. You are more than just sex
This means you are just sex.
If he says it to you along with any of phrases 1 & 2 then you are DEFINITELY just sex. He is trying to convince you you mean more to him than just sex so that you stick around hoping for a relationship.

4. I might be ready for a relationship in the future
Yes, he will. But it won't be with you. If he wanted you to be his girlfriend, you already would be.

The Hard, Cold Facts:

If he wants you long term, you will know. Even shy men or men with commitment problems will not want to risk losing the woman they see as special above all others. So you will know.

If you are in a casual relationship or he is reluctant to commit and you want more the only solution is to walk away. If you stay, he will continue using you, and will value you less and less as time goes on. The only possible way for him to change his mind about you is to remove yourself from the equation.

If he has ishoos, it's not sexy, it's not a challenge, it's not a sign that you were destined to save him and win his love. It's a sign he will make a shitty partner, shitty father and shitty person to invest in. There is nothing sexier than a grown assed man with his shit together.

If he sends mixed messages, blows hot and cold, makes you feel unsure about what he wants and you find yourself posting on Mumsnet or Googling to try an figure out what he is thinking...RUN AWAY. It's not meant to be that complicated and a man that truly cares about how you feel is never going to make you wonder where you stand.

Never, ever, ever, ever underestimate the lengths a man will go to for sex. I hate to tarnish all men with that brush because they ain't all like it, but there are a scary proportion of men (younger ones especially) that will do anything to get sex off you. Espeically if it's good sex. They will jump on a plane, pay for expensive dates, stand outside your window singing Barry Manilow. And this ain't love. It's lust -and it means NOTHING except they really, really want to bang you.

Men, especially the younger and unevolved ones all have a strategy they have evolved to catch women. The good looking, charming ones might sweep you off your feet and you can see those coming - watch out for the underdog that wins you over by telling you a sob story about his alcoholic mother and how much he feels a "connection" with you. They're the worst, you never see them coming.

A good relationship makes you feel totally fullfilled. You don't wonder how they feel about you or why they haven't returned a message or why they didn't make plans for the weekend with you yet. They make you a priority and there's no grey area.

If he is up and down, hot and cold and all over you one minute leaving you confused the next then he is a prick. Without question. He's not scared, he's not busy, he's not anything- but a prick. Walk away, because he likes you...as an OPTION.

If he is still on dating sites logging on "just to check" after 12 dates or more...he is looking for someone better.

If he doesn't message or call you much one day but you notice he's been "online" quite a lot while telling you he is busy - then he is talking to someone else, a new prospect or perhaps someone else he has on the backburner.

Women and men are generally different in that we tend to bond more quickly /decide on one person -whereas they like to keep their options open. Never, ever, ever allow yourself to bond to a man before he's made it clear he's decided he wants you and only you.

If he is a bad boyfriend at the very start, he will be a thousand times worse by the time you have been with him a while and the honeymoon period is over.

If he doesn't make time to see you most weekends or ask you to meet his friends and family and be keen to meet yours or plan things to do together in advance or show in practical actions that he sees you as someone he wants to integtate into his life - they forget his words - his actions say it all.

We teach them how to treat us. So teach him that you are worth all the diamonds on earth by having boundaries in place to accept absolutely zero disrespect, selfishness or mind fuck behavior and he will either move on to the next person who is willing to accept his crap (making room for Mr Right to walk into yours) or he will look at you, realise what a strong, self respecting woman you are and realise that he had better step up his game. Either way you are a winner.

You never, ever, ever, ever, ever have anything to lose from walking away from a man who is giving you less than 100%. If he comes after you - you will be able to take back your power and he will know that he has to value and respect you to keep you. If he doesn't come after you - you will find someone better.

Sweet shop mentality is strong and I believe a lot of men on dating sites are just looking for a shag or are serial daters. I also don't believe it matters when you have sex with a man, if a man going ghost you it happen.

Man 1, dated for 3 months. Waited a month for sex, he was keen on me at the start but after sex turned hot-cold. Said he wanted take it slow, wasn't sure he wanted a relationship...I stuck around, hoping he change his mind, then trying accept it for what it was...nope it didn't work. Man 1 still on the dating site a year on, I think he is a serial dater.

Man two, said a lot of lovely things to me and we got sexual after two weeks. He ghosted me straight after. He was worst than man 1.

Currently dating a man, going on 4 weeks on Monday. We had sex on the 4th date, he still phones me every day and that's usually more than once a day. Theres no game playing, I know he likes me. Future dates are planned, taking it slow but im not looking at my phone all the time, worrying about his true intentions. It reminds me of what it was like with my sbeh at the start actually,

If a man truly into you, your know and there's none of this worrying. No game playing. It is hard but if a man is unsure about you, ditch. He wont change his mind, you cannot change it no matter how you try.

Agree on the sweet shop mentality, but at least even with that people can be honest that you are not exclusive which makes it easier.

Theres no game playing, I know he likes me. Future dates are planned, taking it slow but im not looking at my phone all the time, worrying about his true intentions. It reminds me of what it was like with my sbeh at the start actually

that is simply what it's meant to be like

If its not like that...on the 5th date, 20th date...whatever...don't bother!

Place marking. Lots to catch up on this thread!

I think you've stood your ground well op in the face of some very 'sorted' people on this thread. Who mightily piss me off tbf.

I'm sure I should qualify that. But I really wouldn't be too impressed iiwy. Though it adds to the debate I suppose.

I think you've stood your ground well op in the face of some very 'sorted' people on this thread.

I do too.

I'm not one of those sorted people either. Many of us aren't. Which is why this relationship board exists.

and even if you know all of this, logically, and follow these rules - not to ''game play'' but to protect yourself and because you don't necessarily want to go right to sleeping with somebody, even then, it is hard not to feel feelings. I do understand the advice ''don't invest'' and I don't think about the future. But I do find myself really hoping that somebody will like me back the way I like them and it can be such torture.

Yes. We all say we'd never tolerate this or that but once you feel those feelings, all bets are off.

I agree with you 314 but the way I see it at least it stops me prolonging it. you know?

Rebecca2014 I'm actually jealous to hear of how things are going so far with your chap. Sounds like it's all going in the right direction.

I'm stuck @ the game playing stage! Seem to attract them, can't shake them off! :(

Purple you are not stuck, its you choosing to stay.

DW and even ex GFs never questioned my feelings, they always knew where they stood.

On the other hand, the women i dated in the past would say I was hot and cold towards them. The reason I was hot and cold was I didnt want a relationship but wanted to keep my 'sexual options' open.

The truth is there was nothing wrong with any of the girls/women I dated. I either didnt want a relationship with anyone or I just didnt see them fitting into my life.

On the other hand, the women i dated in the past would say I was hot and cold towards them. The reason I was hot and cold was I didnt want a relationship but wanted to keep my 'sexual options' open.

Oh that's nice of you!

Has this thread alone not told you how much that hot / cold shit can screw someone up.

Why didn't you just tell them they were for fucks only and you'd call when you wanted some? Or were you scared you'd lose your option?

Thanks arsenal for that honesty.

So if he's hot and cold ladies, he does like you, but he is not serious about you....move on

I'd prefer to know. He may be a dick head but he's not the only one and if we can spot the dickheads then I'll thank this particular one.

arseneltilidie

Stuck as in the sense of such idiotic men keep coming into my life. When I think surely there can't be anymore, here comes another one....

If 'sorted' people piss you off, why might that be?

My posts on this thread were never intended in the sense of having a go at the OP, which I think she knows. They were intended as some kind of balance to the first post. Because it really doesn't have to be rules and regs and believing the opposite of what you're told. If having rules works for the OP, or for anyone else, great. But to take them as universal rules would be a mistake.

I know none of the later comments were aimed at me, but I for one don't see it as a question of being ''sorted'' per se. Although I'm not saying that the posters who are really confident early dating aren't sorted!!! But some personality types flourish in the early stages, some wither with the uncertainty. I hate uncertainty. some love that. It gets their adrenaline going. I hate competition. I withdraw from a competition. But I have a lot of people skills and a lot of empathy and I'm secure in the later stages of a relationship. Who knows, others who have a forcefield around them to protect them from the uncertainty stage might be getting bored and restless by then, or insecure. So imo, you can't really give people blanket advice not to invest, not to feel. some people are dominant in the function of thinking and some are dominant in the function of feeling.

ps, and I've been thinking about this a lot recently! So I accept that this stage is going to be hard for me. But I will follow all of these rules because that sways my dominant function of feeling back towards thinking, which maybe gives me back the advantage that others have naturally.

Just to say...I am not at all offended or ruffled by the "sorted" people on this thread, other than to say that they have the skills that some of us haven't honed yet and need to.

Speaking for the ones who have been sucked in like I have, I know it makes you feel like an idiot but it's never as straight forward as it looks from the outside.

For me the first time it happenned I was at my mid thirties and had dated a lot and didn't know it could even be so complicated. He was very obvious about it from a few weeks into dating me and was never even very nice to me apart from a few flatterring words, but as I'd never seen it before I didn't know what I was seeing. I don't think he ever bullshitted me though, and when I walked away, he did just ignore me and never spoke to me again.

The second one was more like a friend who I dated and after a few weeks of hot and cold he admitted he saw no future and wasn't ready for a relationship but I did waste a few weeks wracking my brains on the hot and cold phenomenon.

The third one was much more difficult. After the first two I was dead set against accepting hot and cold behavior from the outset but with him it was very different. If I tried to discuss it he told me he was falling in love with me and was scared. If I tried to say politely that it was obvious that he was unsure of things and that I felt it was best for me to walk away he would come back at me, unable to let me go.

Long messages of the content I'm so sad, I don't want us to end, it's far more than just sex to me - and you know it. What we have is amazing. I know I have shut down and pulled away but I am just scared to fall for you. I am scared of commitment, I need to work on this

Blah blah blah and it was nothing like I had ever seen before. I could not understand why someone would be so disengenious or waste their own time on such a level and I felt that we were falling in love and it just needed patience on my end.

The truth was after the fact, just as "arsenal" said; he did not want a girlfriend. He also did not see me in his life long term.

I am sure he did feel passion, and I actually believe he was falling for me at one point but he was also never going to make a full effort because for him it was just a bit of fun with no substance, he was never trying to grow anything.

So what I mean is, it's not always black and white.

Sometimes they are obvious players
Sometime they are nice guys who just don't see a future
Sometimes they are deeply emotionally damaged men

Whatever the situation is they will behave differently but like arsenal said -if he is really into you AND he sees and wants a future I don't think you will ever not know where you stand or feel so confused.

And you can't force anyone to love you, and being "patient" with a man with issues isn't going to solve his problem just because you're so nice.

I saw it put really simply somewhere on the internet (that great source). A Feeler and a Thinker go shopping for a shirt. They both find one that fits perfectly in the right price range. A thinker will say to herself, it's perfect but I already have a shirt that's very similar to this so I won't buy this one. A feeler will say to herself, although I already have a blue shirt at home, that shirt is completely different from this one because I don't love the love at home and I do love this one, so I will buy it.

I am a feeler so I need the rules. I am totally sorted but I need the balance of reminding myself (endlessly) of these rules.

Ha ha, how true.

A man also said to me once "A man is meant to coe to you fully assembled. Not in parts with an illedgible instruction manual"

If we're going with the Myers-Briggs school of thinking and feeling, I'm also a feeler (I think it's probably largely bollocks, though).

It's based on the work of Karl Jung, so maybe you don't put much value in it yourself for your own life! but ''largely bollocks'' !! no.

My therapist told me that only someone with low self esteem would accept hot and and cold and confusing behavior from a boyfriend.

I agree with her personally that this is the factor.

When you feel very deeply that you are worth more, it's easy not to accept less.

Jung's very open to critique too...it's been a while since I read him but I don't think even people who spend a lifetime on him would say he was perfect in every aspect.

Yes. That's true. I don't have too much to worry about. I don't worry that people will treat me badly actually as I just walk away. But what's left is a big gap of decent men! Spotting the players and walking away from hot and cold (etc) doesn't mean that there'll be a steady supply of decent interested men! I feel that's what I'm worth, but where are they?!