Ok ladies....roll up...my observations on dating after learning the hard way

[MakingItReal]

Right, I have been dating for a few years now and I see the same problems come up over and over again - causing us unknown strife and heartache. I know there are exceptions to every rule - but in my experience and in every case I know the following is absolutely true:

Translating what he says

1. If a man says he is not looking for a relationship
THEN HE IS NOT LOOKING FOR A RELATIONSHIP. He's not going to fall in love with you and change his mind. He enjoys your company and all the free sex he has already decided that you are NOT going to be a long term relationship for him.

2. If a man says he is not looking for a relationship part 2
He is keeping his options open so that he can freely move on to the next person when he finds her and believe me he is still looking regardless of the fact he has told you that you are exclusive.

3. When he says "I don't want to hurt you
This means he is going to hurt you. He realises you like him and are invested and he is aware he is going to hurt you. Someone who wants to be with you would be telling you 'I'm not going to hurt you'. There is only a slight difference between the two phrases but the meaning of each is completely different.

5. You are more than just sex
This means you are just sex.
If he says it to you along with any of phrases 1 & 2 then you are DEFINITELY just sex. He is trying to convince you you mean more to him than just sex so that you stick around hoping for a relationship.

4. I might be ready for a relationship in the future
Yes, he will. But it won't be with you. If he wanted you to be his girlfriend, you already would be.

The Hard, Cold Facts:

If he wants you long term, you will know. Even shy men or men with commitment problems will not want to risk losing the woman they see as special above all others. So you will know.

If you are in a casual relationship or he is reluctant to commit and you want more the only solution is to walk away. If you stay, he will continue using you, and will value you less and less as time goes on. The only possible way for him to change his mind about you is to remove yourself from the equation.

If he has ishoos, it's not sexy, it's not a challenge, it's not a sign that you were destined to save him and win his love. It's a sign he will make a shitty partner, shitty father and shitty person to invest in. There is nothing sexier than a grown assed man with his shit together.

If he sends mixed messages, blows hot and cold, makes you feel unsure about what he wants and you find yourself posting on Mumsnet or Googling to try an figure out what he is thinking...RUN AWAY. It's not meant to be that complicated and a man that truly cares about how you feel is never going to make you wonder where you stand.

Never, ever, ever, ever underestimate the lengths a man will go to for sex. I hate to tarnish all men with that brush because they ain't all like it, but there are a scary proportion of men (younger ones especially) that will do anything to get sex off you. Espeically if it's good sex. They will jump on a plane, pay for expensive dates, stand outside your window singing Barry Manilow. And this ain't love. It's lust -and it means NOTHING except they really, really want to bang you.

Men, especially the younger and unevolved ones all have a strategy they have evolved to catch women. The good looking, charming ones might sweep you off your feet and you can see those coming - watch out for the underdog that wins you over by telling you a sob story about his alcoholic mother and how much he feels a "connection" with you. They're the worst, you never see them coming.

A good relationship makes you feel totally fullfilled. You don't wonder how they feel about you or why they haven't returned a message or why they didn't make plans for the weekend with you yet. They make you a priority and there's no grey area.

If he is up and down, hot and cold and all over you one minute leaving you confused the next then he is a prick. Without question. He's not scared, he's not busy, he's not anything- but a prick. Walk away, because he likes you...as an OPTION.

If he is still on dating sites logging on "just to check" after 12 dates or more...he is looking for someone better.

If he doesn't message or call you much one day but you notice he's been "online" quite a lot while telling you he is busy - then he is talking to someone else, a new prospect or perhaps someone else he has on the backburner.

Women and men are generally different in that we tend to bond more quickly /decide on one person -whereas they like to keep their options open. Never, ever, ever allow yourself to bond to a man before he's made it clear he's decided he wants you and only you.

If he is a bad boyfriend at the very start, he will be a thousand times worse by the time you have been with him a while and the honeymoon period is over.

If he doesn't make time to see you most weekends or ask you to meet his friends and family and be keen to meet yours or plan things to do together in advance or show in practical actions that he sees you as someone he wants to integtate into his life - they forget his words - his actions say it all.

We teach them how to treat us. So teach him that you are worth all the diamonds on earth by having boundaries in place to accept absolutely zero disrespect, selfishness or mind fuck behavior and he will either move on to the next person who is willing to accept his crap (making room for Mr Right to walk into yours) or he will look at you, realise what a strong, self respecting woman you are and realise that he had better step up his game. Either way you are a winner.

You never, ever, ever, ever, ever have anything to lose from walking away from a man who is giving you less than 100%. If he comes after you - you will be able to take back your power and he will know that he has to value and respect you to keep you. If he doesn't come after you - you will find someone better.

So you dumped him because you weren't happy with the relationship. That is great. How it should be. I don't get all the angst.
You can block him

Are you a man by any chance?

The point is, and please undertand before one us us dies, is that I would have dumped him 6 months earlier and saved an awful lot of angst if I had known what was on this thread.

Thus was sharing it with others to maybe save them from the same angst

How long have you been single (not actively looking) in those 15 years

No. Woman.

Ive been single for long periods, dating for long periods and in long (lovely) relationships)

I needed the clarity that is in the op.
unfortunately I didn't realise for a long time that I needed to walk away. If I'd read this earlier maybe I wouldn't have hung on for so long.

If my comment offended people, then I apologise but, it clearly wasn't meant to. It just sounded like everything was being over analysed & over complicated. I was telling the truth from experience. Blokes won't bother talking to someone they don't fancy in the first place, if a bloke likes a woman, they'll give them their time & so on. So from an initial attraction piece, yeah a bloke will have decided, yes I want to have sex with you. The big difference is what happens after. And all I'm saying is, if a bloke is happy in a relationship & they're getting what they need, they'll be committed & won't stray. I know when I've not provided what a partner wanted they binned me off and quite right too, it's their choice & a bloke would do the same and blokes are very simple creatures.

NAMALT

I don't agree men don't stray if they are getting all they need in a relationship, and same for women. That puts the blame on the victim

People might sometimes cheat because they are unhappy or have unmet needs but also do it because the opportunity presents. They do it because they're capable of it.

Most people are capable of being unhappy in a relationship and either working on it leaving it -no need to stray, ever.

Robinson

Yes, it is a bit raw and yes I am still a bit traumatised and the OP was my new mantras to implement to protect myself, and was definitely motivated by personal pain.

I genuinely envy how self assured and well adjusted you are and how simple you have been able to make it. Maybe with some practice I can get there tooo where what should be obvious becomes more naturally obvious to me.

I doubt someone like you would have stuck around for five minutes with one of these jerks. I think I am a pre-disposed sucker.

Always want to think the best
Assume everyone is like me
Try and work everything out
Hate leaving a relationship and prefer to work it out

My friends say it is a nice way to be, but it doesn't translate well to online dating where there are unfortunately a fair few shady daters.

MakingItReal

I agree, there should be no blame on the victim at all. If there is blame, it's totally with the cheat. For that there is no excuse ever. It should be discussed & confronted & if needs aren't being met, then either party should walk

I can state, if it helps, that I am a very educated woman. Well travelled, good family, great circle of friends, impressive career (even featured in the press as an expert), own a successful business with over £1. million turnover and 9 employess, skated my way through school, run a home with a child who without a shred of help from his Dad and have fantastic bonds and relationships with those around me and despite all of this:

I genuinely, genuinely genuinely sat there and listened to someone say "I don't want a relationship" and because he was also saying "^I have never felt like this before, what we have is amazing, I don't want to split up>" I thought he would just fall in love and change his mind.

Because I thouht us being "special" meant the rules didn't apply.

Yes, it sounds very, very, very stupid but for me I have no idea why - I just thought people changed their mind.

Which yes, they do. About what they want for dinner. Even about big things sometimes. But I do realise now that if someone is explicitly telling you they don't want a relationship you have to just listen to that and tune out all the other contradictions for your own sanity. And if you DO want a relationship the absolutely on sane course of action is to leave. If they then chang their mind, fine, but don't sit there dying inside a little every day waiting for someone to satrt loving you who doesn't.

For women who have gone thru certain dating/relationship experiences that have had upsetting and negative impacts, I always say don't let some bloke come along and grill you about it, aiming to negate whats happened to you as if you are the "little woman" and don't know how you felt, or what happened. If what you say resonates with some women all well and good they can take something from that, much better than all the sidetracking

Having a quick look thru there are some pretty uncomfortable experiences on here, and they're being minimised/dismissed in some ways which is not on. There's a need to stop falling for the antagonistic crap of people trying to pinpoint your experiences and try to make you relive it all in negative ways

Aside from all that, interesting re. why men cheat. Who cares why they cheat? The fact they've done it is enough, personally I wouldn't want a man thats been laying down elsewhere to come back and lay even a finger on me so thats that, they have to go. People do things because they want to, and because they can.

When I was dating I had problems dating a man who had been into me for a long, long time, then wasn't and then cheated, also a toxic, abusive man who I thought just had "issues" . could really have benefited from knowledge from MN, eg on "red flags" and "the script".

It all starts in teen years!

I agree with this

"I was chatting to a close male friend the other night about this, and he says that it should not be so complicated.

I told him that was easy for him to say - because if he goes on an online date with a woman - generally -GENERALLY speaking in 99% of cases if she wants to see him again it's because she sees potential. Like...she makes it straight forward. She isn't going to think "hmm, no real potential but if I act like I like him maybe I can fuck him for a while so I can look for something better".

I also think in the future I will try and be brave enough to say ''I'm only comfortable having sex in a relationship, so is that what we have?" and then hope that the answer is truthful

What are we doing about it though? By "we" i mean those of us with experiences like mine.

I am trying to make my own life look more exciting. I have a new job lined up with a big fat pay rise and I am currently looking at a holiday to SE Asia.

Anyone want to throw in some tips if you have been?

Real: 'I genuinely envy how self assured and well adjusted you are and how simple you have been able to make it. Maybe with some practice I can get there tooo where what should be obvious becomes more naturally obvious to me.'

It's not really simple, though. It sounds simple written down, but in reality of course my sex/dating/love life is as messy as anyone else's. It's just not messy in a way (these days) that involves me getting hurt through misunderstandings or being manipulated or similar.

And it's not obvious, either, which is why I wrote that list a few pages back of all the things I've done to be able to be better at relationships. And that stuff is work. Education and hard work. Reading, thinking, therapy: all difficult to a greater or lesser extent. And just as you (probably) wouldn't try and embark on a new business project while still reeling from the catastrophic fall out of the last one (if I can stretch the metaphor: you're bankrupt, you're fending off unhappy clients, you feel like you failed and fucked up), I personally, these days, wouldn't try to date new people while nursing my wounds from the last one.

(In my younger days of course I did, and it went as well as you would expect, i.e. not at all well.)

So I would suggest, tentatively and non-prescriptively, that the way to get over or get out a cycle of dysfunctional relationships is to stop trying to have them with other people for a bit and start having one with yourself first.

I think all "we"" can do is know what we want, know what suits, don't deviate and let anyone mess you around, and when we see red flags don't pretend we haven't seen them, take a deep breath and get out of the line of fire

The mindset I have now, I so wish Id had when I was younger. What I did after the last failed relationship was take time out. Rekindle my social life, enjoy time with friends. & with grown up DDs who are fun, & good for hair & makeup tips and a confidence boost. Went on a few holidays, Cape Verde was one place Id always wanted to go to, so that was 1st port of call. Re-started dance classes. Got out of my career rut and resolved to earn more money, which I did. Its strange, after a time I forgot about having a man as my life was full. Having a partner didnt seem important.

I did eventually meet OH. We are exclusive but don't live together, and its absolutely fine. Long may it last but if it doesn't Im cool, I like my life and my happiness isn't reliant on him. I don't want to live with a man again I like the peace and tranquility of my home. He doesn't pressurise me about anything, and I like that. Had too much noise in my head for years and much of that I now realise was about not liking myself enough, and tying in my worth with what a man thought about me

The old me would never have lived like this. When I was in a relationship I was way too over-invested in where it was going, why isn't it progressing faster/further, a relationship's not a relationship unless it leads to being together properly, by that I mean living together under one roof. Its very freeing realising that certain things just don't matter anymore. A blessing after years of car-crash relationships, some I cringe looking back on!

This year Im having 3 holidays, one with friends and our DDs, then a short break with OH, and in July off to Rotterdam Carnival with a mate. Also looking at ways of increasing income again. I feel busy and focused, with stuff to look forward to.

I will never be so caught up in a relationship and whats happening within it that it stunts all else I do, again.

Here's something that might be worth reading. It's called How to Screw Up Your Relationship and is a guide to behaviours that are not helpful in cultivating good relationships. It's intended for people in polyamorous relationships but that makes no difference, the guidance is universal for all kinds of relationships, give or take some of the examples.

www.morethantwo.com/making_relationships_suck.pdf

It includes stuff on how your emotions might not always be grounded in reality, how not communicating well is just relationship-suicide, how insecurity damages relationships and various other things. Highly recommend.

I will never be so caught up in a relationship and whats happening within it that it stunts all else I do, again.

I've been in that mind set since 2012. Fuck. Wondering what they are doing.

Robinsons, ive been working on myself for 8 years since i left abusive x, but it doesnt take away the uncertainty of early dating. That's what i hate.

314 I think it's fine to be uncomfortable with the uncertainty of early dating, though. It's strange meeting new people and not knowing how much you like them or how much they like you. (Or whether either of you like each other at all). It's ok for things to be strange and uncertain, and for that to feel uncomfortable or unpleasant.

But it just shouldn't last that long with someone you're into who's into you, I suppose. A necessary short-term thing before you know where things are going, if they're going somewhere.

But it just shouldn't last that long with someone you're into who's into you, I suppose. A necessary short-term thing before you know where things are going, if they're going somewhere.

No it shouldnt but the early stage I have found isnt the worst hurdle. It is easy to have fun with someone at the beginning.

The problem lies a few months in. When you see things you didnt see before and they decide they dont like you anymore.

I found dating really difficult after coming out of a 9 year relationship. I'd never really dated before. I made lots of mistakes doing online dating and deleted my profile countless times. It only worked for me when i completely changed my attitude. I met people quickly instead of talking online for ages, I asked them on dates, short casual meetings such as coffee, cinema etc, dated several people at once (No sex or kissing other than a quick peck). Once this took the pressure off I met my partner. I knew instantly he was the one and cancelled all the others.

Yeh that was where i struggled with the last guy. He was lovely when we were together, every time we parted we arranged the next date, two a week for six weeks, but i never heard much inbetween dates. I had to figure out if it would be stupid to end it because i felt uncertainty.

Im very calm once i know we are on the same page.

I enjoy first dates! If they're good, i enjoy the second date too. It's those dates in between two and The Conversatio that i find incredibly stressful and not enjoyable.

Part of the reason for that is i have hardly any experience of getting through that awkward phase before you know if you have something or not.