If your father left you to die [Trigger warning for addiction/alcoholism added by MNHQ]

[WildeWoman]

By leaving you to die, I mean 'she's an alcoholic, what can you do'.

And you later found out that he may have been complicit in welfare fraud..........

Would you report him?

But if what they are doing isn't working then perhaps they should try something else.

Not working from whose perspective? I assume you mean not working to fix the alcoholics behavior. But perhaps that isnt their purpose in choosing that course of action. Perhaps, as i said earlier, their intention is just to allow that person as little impact on their own life as possible. Its ok to decide that too.

No, of course not. I was commenting on the fact that so many family members as demonstrated by PPs feel guilted into staying in a deeply damaging relationships with addicts. Perhaps you thought I was answering previous questions about earlier replies. The question of naivety didn;t enter into my post.

But if what they are doing isn't working then perhaps they should try something else.

and what when you have tried everything possible?

There wasn't. It's all lies

I believe there wasn't. I was trying to be diplomatic. But you are right

Eh? Well, yes I think they could be called naive in those situations Katenka and have been.

Say someone says, "DH snaps at me all the time and I'm scared". There's often the reply from someone who's had nothing but lovely relationships who says, "Aw. Do you think he's depressed? Have you talked to him?" Others will instantly say "that's bollocks!" and give better advice.

Personally I'm hypersensitive to manipulation after growing up the way I did, but I'm still not "surprised" to see these sort of responses at first on threads like these - and when I say they're naive I'm not saying that's a good thing, I'm just saying that's the nature of an online forum.

It's good that others have responded with more understanding, although sad that it's reopened wounds for others.

So I don't get why you're being a bit snappy in your responses on that one (or am I misreading something? It's hard to tell online...)

Eh? Well, yes I think they could be called naive in those situations Katenka and have been.

I don't think they would called naive. As you said they would be told 'that's bollocks'.

So I don't get why you're being a bit snappy in your responses on that one (or am I misreading something? It's hard to tell online...)

No I am not meaning to be snappy, at all. Apologies if it's coming across that way.

FATE that sounds so hard

I defy anyone to live with someone like that for too long, or try to help them in any way. It would damage you immensely.

You see? Hypersensitive sorry.

I think if the first 10 posts of that sort of thread were all like that though, people trying to explain it could charitably say they were just v. naive. If after all this talk they came back with the same views mind you, I'd put a less charitable interpretation on it.

As someone upthread said (I think) it does come down to domestic violence being more known about, discussed, and easier to spot than living with an addict...

it does come down to domestic violence being more known about, discussed, and easier to spot than living with an addict...

I don't believe it's just that, though. I would hope anyone saying an abuser's partner or family should 'try harder' or 'do more' to facilitate their behaviour would be told where to go (preferably into heavy traffic), but the fact remains that the family, friends and lovers of addicts are actively pressured to remain in situations where the behaviour is comparable or even at times the same (physical violence, emotional manipulation, etc). It's not that it's not known about, it's just not deemed as bad, or as immediately dangerous, or it's seen as their duty out of love, and it isn't.

Fate you hit the nail on the head again.

Yes, so true FATE

I think if the first 10 posts of that sort of thread were all like that though, people trying to explain it could charitably say they were just v. naive

I see where you are coming from.

For me it's so frustrating. I grew up with family members in both sides being alcoholics. I have spent 32 years watching the sober ones trying to do everything they can.

I just feel that some people on here are too ready to jump in with 'if you don't stand by an addict and don't kill yourself trying to help you are a shit dad, mum, sister etc'

Cutting a loved one who is an addict off is harder than enabling them imo.
People who believe a parent who cuts their addict children off are arseholes, really gets to me.

These people generally don't have a clue about dealing with it and are actually enabling the addict and backing them up.

... I think I meant that if it were more "known about", it would be "deemed as bad, or as immediately dangerous" - if that makes sense.

(Maybe I should shut up now though, don't think I'm able to articulate properly what I mean... I'm definitely not saying people should put up with addicts - hopefully the exact opposite).

I've been promising myself I wouldn't get pulled into 'justifying' myself but here I am

I did my best to respond to Wilde with empathy & compassion. I honestly do my best to respond to anyone in trouble this way. Telling somebody they're a piece of shit has its uses, but it's very rarely of benefit to the recipient. If there's any possibility, however slight, of an addict 'hearing' some compassionate words and moving closer to recovery, I'll try to say them. I don't know what the rest of you think happens in recovery, but it definitely doesn't begin with a stream of personal insults.

Of course I understand all the anger and sadness here.

But I'm not particularly ignorant or naive.

Ah yes, kacie I see you what you mean. I would certainly hope so, I can't help feeling there would still be people who blamed the relative/lover/friend for not sticking around to be abused - some people still blame those fleeing violent relationships after all. There are people who'll victim-blame no matter what, sadly. And, as addicts, we do turn our family and loved ones into victims, when we are not sober, we are deeply fucking unpleasant people.

Totally agree that addiction is like an abusive relationship (for the user) and makes addicts abusive in their human relationships. And that it's like an affair.

Women often get told they should sacrifice themselves for others. Applies where there is abuse, addiction, illness, anything you think of really. It's crap advice.

Garlic I do understand to a degree.

But you told the OP she should report her father for welfare fraud for leaving her dying in the street.

When the truth is closer to the father refused to give her money and enable her any further. She wasn't dying in the streets. She makes no mention of where her daughter was. Her brother enables her and has told her she can't recover. That's why she sees him as her saviour.

All I am saying is that when someone says they are an alcoholic, they are also saying 'I am a master manipulator that will blame everyone else. It's everyone else fault and I am the victim'

People supporting that PoV is enabling the addiction and their behaviour.

All I said was "thumbs up from me", after the first two posts, then "I share your anger at your father" when I suggested she try to detach from her resentment.

He probably is an arsehole. He wasn't posting, anyhow, so why should I care what anyone thinks of him? It's still best for her if she undoes her attachment to him.

The guilt for the onlooker is crippling.

One of the things I feel bad about is the drinking with the alcoholic in the early stages before it becomes clear there is a huge issue. The alcoholic still drinks socially and the loved one just has this tiny suspicion ("X is getting drunker than most. X is a bit overly worried to get his "fair share" or more from a bottle. I shared a bottle of wine with X last night, he was going to read after I went to bed, the second bottle has disappeared. X secretly finished most of my drink whilst I was on the loo...") Years later you wonder if they would have turned alcoholic had you had put your foot down at that stage.

Well, yes, agreeing that everyone's to blame for the addict's problems is enabling.

Validating that they feel victimised is different.

Years later you wonder if they would have turned alcoholic had you had put your foot down at that stage.

Ouch, paxillin, don't do that!!

If you'd prevented access to alcohol - leaving aside questions of whether that would make you abusive - they'd find some other substance/behaviour.