this hit home - bloke's blog

[stealtheatingtunnocks]

This is exactly what is wrong in my marriage.

Hadn't realised there was a nail, let alone that it needed hitting on it's head.

I am going to try to articulate to my husband why I need him to stack the glass in the dishwasher. Again. Sigh.

mustbethistalltoride.com/2016/01/14/she-divorced-me-because-i-left-dishes-by-the-sink/

As they were taught from birth to be dependent, so we were taught from birth to serve them.

DM is an avowed feminist. She has three or four degrees, highlights sexist language and policies at work, etc etc.

But she taught me to believe that a woman keeps the house for her man, even when they're both working full time, although she can get a cleaner to avoid some of the drudgery; that a woman's paid work isn't as important as a man's and she's the one to give up work completely until the last child is safely into school; that the smoothness of a man's or child's clothing is a reflection on the wife/mother; and so on. When I got married she told me I'd be disowned if we used the "love, honour and obey" rubric, and in the same breath asked me if I was going to incorporate DH's first name into my married name as well as his surname (eg going from Sally Jane Tucker to Sally Jane John Smith).

She's a hundred times more feminist than her mother; I'm a hundred times more feminist than she is. But it's hard to undo decades of upbringing.

I have all sons so I can't fall into different treatment of boys and girls. Everyone takes their plate into the kitchen, puts their pants into the washing basket, and so on. If a child is poorly on a working day, it's as likely to be DH who works from home while I go to a meeting.

We do our best. But excuuuuuuuuse me from starting effectively a generation behind you.

"We do our best. But excuuuuuuuuse me from starting effectively a generation behind you."

Sorry? Don't understand......

She's a hundred times more feminist than her mother; I'm a hundred times more feminist than she is

Then we have every reason to think that our daughters will build and improve on the progress that we have made
Non?

My DH is one of those men who will do things without prompting.

I am not one of those women

Apparently, there's something which attracts the housework-doers to the non-doers!

(I'm joking. But I do think that a pattern can build where one person does things and the other ends up relying on them and never thinks to use their initiative.)

I use apps and reminders to help jolt me into thinking about the housework. But I probably wouldn't do this if I wasn't aware of what a great strain it would be on DH if I did not. In a massive part, it's mumsnet and other sources like it, when I hear how much of a burden wives of non-doers carry, that it made me think about the burden I am placing. I don't know whether men have this? It's overwhelmingly a female problem, women picking up the slack their husbands and partners leave. Where are the men who discuss the effect it has on their wives? I doubt it happens; it's uncomfortable to discuss your own shortcomings, and husbands who complain about their wife's messiness are met with laughter IME - because people know that overwhelmingly it's the man who burdens the woman. Likewise, I find that when I vent about not being able to keep up and feeling sorry for him being stuck with me, people assume that he has high standards and does less, and I get sympathy for him mistreating me, which makes me feel uncomfortable, that's not the situation. (I appreciate that it is for some.)

BTW, "Fuck you DH" is working wonders. It's not hitting the stuff I don't notice but it's highlighting to me the amount of stuff I always thought I didn't notice but actually I'm noticing and immediately disregarding.

stealtheating - I agree that I find "Well I wouldn't put up with it!" smug bollocks. And yet I do think that these kinds of disagreements can eventually lead to a point where LTB is the only solution, and I have no qualms about telling somebody so, and noting that accelerating such a decision might not be a terrible thing. But yes, it's actually surprising what you find you'll put up with in exchange for other things - security, friendship, love, shared history, a co-parent you can trust. Not easy things to get back. It's never an easy choice to end a relationship and those outside of it should not push - except perhaps in the case that somebody is in danger.

Bertie - I have a friend who is like you, I think. Her DH is the one who likes the house to be pristine, and she couldn't care less, so he's the one who does all the housework. He has, in the past, complained that she just leaves all her clothes where they fall (yes, a common complaint about husbands) and he can't understand or bear it, so he picks them up. They both work, he worked shifts though, so he had time in the day where she didn't. But my friend does do the cooking (although not the washing up!).
They don't have children, and won't now (too old) and sometimes I think that's not necessarily a bad thing (they didn't want them) because whenever I've stayed at their house with my DSs, it's been quite a strain to make sure we don't make any mess! I'm not sure the DH would have coped well with "child mess".

Similar, I think, but my DH isn't interested in pristine, I think he has a pretty normal level of mess tolerance. Mine is really high though! I don't like smells, mould, dampness, grease, anything like that. But just stuff everywhere isn't an issue to me. DH doesn't like the stuff but to me he isn't as on top of grease etc as I'd like. We make a good team, I suppose, but he still notices things before I do, so for example he'll wipe the table down and use a product that I don't like but you can't complain because I don't really do enough to make up for it!

Dh does more than me but he cares more than me. I do bits I like which is mainly tidying, organising and hoovering.

It's about respect my ex never lifted a finger to help and if he did he would do half the job -( first time I ever saw someone mow half the garden - literally ). He just didn't think he should/ want to. And if I complained he would tell me that if I didn't like it I could do it my self.

If I raised an issue about anything he just say I mentioned it so I got the problem with it therefore I got to change - refused to take any responsibility for his actions at all
Can't imagine why we split up.....

Im curious - apart from the angry 'making a point' guy, do people actually leave the kids in just the fathers care regularly, so they can see how little you can get done?

The problem with that is, or what I hear reported a lot (so it's not just me and my ineptness!) that often, he does manage to get it all done, and it just cements the idea that you're "doing nothing all day".

I think there are several reasons for this but all are theories.

1. Kids tend to behave better when not with their main caregiver. Making things easier.

1. Dads give themselves less guilt over being "perfect". They're happier to use TV as a distraction, feed crap food because they know it will be eaten, skip a bath if the kids aren't "really" dirty, less likely to attempt Pinterest crafts, etc.

1. When you have the kids for a short time, it's fairly easy to keep them happy and do what you need in that short time. If you can hand them back and let somebody else deal with the fallout, of course it's simpler! When you have DC day in day out for long periods, you can't take as many shortcuts with things like naps, behaviour management, crap food, because all of those things have longer term effects which you'll pay for as a parent.

1. They have a smaller window of things to worry about. When they are in charge of the DC and housework for one day, they only have to worry about the DC + housework for that day. They don't need to worry about finishing paperwork, checking the school calendar for party invitations, remembering whether DC are due a dental check up, writing thank you notes to family members, noticing when clothes are outgrown and buying new, perhaps working from home, meal planning, shopping, or any of the other myriad forms of "wifework" which the main parent is doing.

In short, it's not the same kind of experience at all unless they are doing extended periods regularly. Which is why I think that shared parental leave is BRILLIANT and should be taken up by everyone, if at all possible. It just gives you that respect and sense of what the other is doing.

I know two women who were so annoyed about their husbands making comments along the lines of 'Spag bol again??' after they had had tough days with toddler plus baby under 3 months old to deal with that they resorted to this.

One of them had won a weekend spa getaway for herself and a guest. They took themselves off on a Friday evening and turned off their phones. One of the toddlers was potty training at the time. One of the babies tended to be colicky and a light napper.

The bins were bulging with take away containers in one house on Sunday evening. The woman's MIL had called in on the Sunday afternoon and read her son the riot act when she found nobody was washed or dressed yet. In the other, a herd of buffalo had apparently rumbled through the house. It took that particular women and her beloved SIL the best part of Monday to find all the lost toy bits and clean up. But it was so worth it.

The experiment was slightly contaminated by the involvement of the SIL and the MIL -- the SIL tackled her brother on the minefield topic of expectations and patiently explained to him (it was reported to me that she spoke to him as if he was a bit dim) that her house always looked nice because she had a nanny who was there with her and her twins and three year old even when she was at home and a cleaning service that came weekly. She pointed out that she was able to clean up after him because her nanny was taking care of her children. Neither woman really knows if the result would have been the same without the intervention of their husbands' female family members.

Though I think Bertie is spot on -- shared parental leave is the way to go.

It is such a shame that this simmering problem is so widespread. It is incredibly corrosive in a relationship. I think the topic of expectations and relationship adjustment should be covered very seriously in pre natal classes.

Yes, I think it's a combination of things. Men often have models that are way worse than them. And their peers often talk about their wives 'nagging' them. And women feel they have to be superhumans and do it all and that men aren't capable. And then on top of that, one doesn't understand how much the other does.

My dp is great, but I did have to point out that he wasn't doing me a favour doing the washing/hoovering/cleaning the toilet. I consider myself lucky that he does these things once a week without prompting. I just think somehow men have been conditioned a certain way and women too. Once you have a dscussion tho things can improve. I seem to be the only one who can clean a toilet and bathroom though, but maybe he feels that he doesn't want to intefere. We have reached a happy medium and I no longer feel cross about it and he does a fair share, though not half.

I agree Bertie - in fact I'm not sure go away for the weekend and leave them to it is good advice...
I had to go into hospital unexpectedly for 5 days - both DCs were school age ...and (luckily) he had 4 days off in a row so was around in the day.
I had left a mountain of washing...but apart from that house was pretty clean and tidy.
When I came back DP said it was easy ... but...
He had done the washing ...(washed everything together at 60 and tumble dried on high - things like the brand new leggings I had bought for the DCs were ruined ) but none of it had been put away.
The tidy house was much less tidy...
They had eaten takeaway or my batch cooking from the freezer every night (and he does actually cook for them sometimes -just decided he was too busy that week...)
And he had forgotten to put the bins out...

And what he really didn't appreciate was how much help he had because I was ill..
So he hadn't sent in lunch money - DC said I was in hospital so the school didn't ask for it until the following week and told DCs it was ok if they didn't get all their homework done that week.
Friends had picked them up from school a couple of times, took them one day and one had them for a sleepover one night. They also did all the lifts to the activities (we normally lift shared) and the one I couldn't lift share (only my DC went) she didn't go that week...
They had watched a hell of a lot of tv...done little else. In fact they were at school everyday bar one and they had spent that watching tv...
And no 'wifework' - there were no party invites, bills to pay, dates to add to calendar, school events etc etc in such a short space of time.
(And obviously he hadn't done my work)

If anything it made it worse...

Thats is interesting, thats why was looking at the extended experience, as anyone can be a cool dad and lets kids watch tv all time/take out etc.

I think the topic of expectations and relationship adjustment should be covered very seriously in pre natal classes.

THIS - as seems such a common topic

A school propping up sexism again Quelle surprise.

Cant remember whether it was this thread or the "incompetent husband" one but an MNer was called into school because the DCs were late several times when their dad was taking them in.

Yep they called her in instead of him.

helena you might have a point but it is a small school they might have acted the same if DCs said Dad normally gives us the lunch money but is in hospital so Mum didn't know we needed it today.
And the homework thing too - thinking about anyone unexpectedly having to juggle work (wouldn't know DP was off) and hospital visiting...
and also being kind to the DCs (they saw me in a lot of pain, I went in an ambulance - so it was quite upsetting and worrying for them ...)

Ah i see. Hope you are better now

Thanks helena - am well now
And all a bit of a mystery - never found out what caused it ..but it was incredibly painful -more painful that child birth, so painful I had to have a morphine injection to be able to even speak.
I have a long standing health issue so they thought it was something to do with that and by the time they finally ruled out any connection the pain had started easing on its own and they couldn't find anything ...told me to go back if I got it again - and that was 4 or 5 yrs ago...

in honesty it's 1% of men who do the presentation and underlying work well.

Most of them won't or can't. It's women who have the higher / adequate standards and men don't.

Mumsnet is a small proportion of the population and really the more female-vocal part of it.

Most men (not all!) are really poor at pulling their weight family / household wise. People just think kids are women's work. Gods I hope it gets better.

I keep threatening to leave DH to look after the boys for a weekend, but I know it would be pointless because he'd just draft his mother in for said weekend to help. And she would just do it, because she wouldn't understand/accept my rationale.

I have a friend who has 4 DC who do quite a number of activities, both during the day (younger ones) and after school. When her DH has them for just one day and has to deal with all this, he is astonished and amazed at how she gets it all done - he rarely manages all the activities, one usually gets dumped. He's very vocal about how amazing she is, and he couldn't do it on a regular basis - but he still doesn't do all he could around the house, although he's better than many (does all the laundry, but doesn't put it away; cleans the kitchen but doesn't wash up, that kind of thing).

I do fear for my boys, if anything were to happen to me. I would imagine that DH would learn to step up, but all sorts of things would go by the wayside. I remember reading somewhere a very tragic story that a dying mum put in her Will an instruction to her DH to remember to cut the DC's toenails - because otherwise it would never cross his mind. :(

I'm stepping back a bit. Am tired of trying to make the house and the kids and work and marriage work.

Fuck it.

Have sat and done some sewing in front of catch-up tv for 2 hours.

Like, after I'd done all the chores. He was late in from work (to be fair, he is working long hours just now)...left his fecking dish on the side of the sink.

It's sitting there now, saying "fuck you, Stealth" at me.

He's not a bad man. He's just entitled. It's not attractive.

Thumb, that story is awful.

I get it.

Our middle one is chronically unwell - DH doesn't even make sure that he's taking his medication. This is part of the reason why I can't leave him. Wouldn't trust him for access visits. I'd just land up having to manage his house so that the kids were safe there. It's easier to stay here and wait til the kids are bigger.

Then, he'll be like the guy in the blog, bemused and a bit sad.

Oh meds - god, I remember when Ds1 had the Virus From Hell (we all caught it, it was dreadful) and it was affecting his abdominal lymphnodes, so he had a fever and was in a fair bit of pain, couldn't/wouldn't eat and was very miserable and lethargic. He didn't want to take his ibuprofen or panadol (calpol equiv) - and he was only 2, so it was quite hard getting it in by myself, but fecking DH wouldn't help, because he "couldn't stand to see him be made so unhappy" - if it was left to him, DS1 wouldn't have got his meds at all! That made me so cross.

He's really bad for that, can't cope with the boys' distress, so does the easiest option to stop it, usually by offering them chocolate at the most inappropriate times. I despair.