this hit home - bloke's blog

[stealtheatingtunnocks]

This is exactly what is wrong in my marriage.

Hadn't realised there was a nail, let alone that it needed hitting on it's head.

I am going to try to articulate to my husband why I need him to stack the glass in the dishwasher. Again. Sigh.

mustbethistalltoride.com/2016/01/14/she-divorced-me-because-i-left-dishes-by-the-sink/

But, it's not sufficient cause to leave in my case - I can't see myself going to a lawyer and saying "my husband is entitled and a bit of a twat". That's not grounds for divorce.

It really is. If it's bad enough to make you miserable, and he doesn't want to change, it's bad enough to divorce.

Sounds to me as if a whole swathe of women are humouring their partners, biding their time , making sure their daughters won't put up with any of that shit.
Once the kids are Independent there will be no reason to put up with the man child
A whole swathe of men will suddenly see how much they benefited from their (former) relationships

'You don't know what you've got till it's gone....'

I tried to show the article to DP and he couldn't get past the title ...got really huffy, refused to read it and kept saying how I'd told him not to put stuff in dishwasher
(which I have - would rather fill and empty myself than have to deal with the fall out from him loading it -just need him to scrape and stack neatly next to the sink...which doesn't always happen)
Anyway when I eventually got past the its not about the dishwasher and he calmed down a bit I was using something that happened a few years ago as an eg that your actions can speak much louder than any words.
I had an important medical appt - I asked for him to get the day so I didn't need to take the DCs. Which he did, but the night before -too late to get someone else to take them - we discovered he had messed up and booked himself a dentist appt a bit later. The timing was such that unless mine was delayed he could still easily make his on time... but he hates being late and being rushed, he always leaves early. There was a remote chance he wouldn't be able to - so I told him I would phone and tell him when I was coming home. If I hadn't phoned by a certain time I was delayed and he could drop the DCs off with me on the way past (would clear it with reception etc)....but he refused point blank.
What if they then messed around getting in the car etc -it would make him late. I would just have to take the DCs with me ...in fact he got up and was ready to leave before me -just in case I tried to leave without them.
(I did take them and they started playing up and I left without asking half the things I had planned to )
I did also explain to him I had had to take both DCs to every dentist appt I had been to before they started school....
Anyway I explained that his actions showed me he didn't consider looking after the DCs his responsibility. Also he thought he was more important than me - his routine check up was more important than my long awaited appt. Also I could be late for my appt (DCs messing around getting into car etc ) but he couldn't be. And he just didn't care about me.

He can't remember this happening - just wouldn't believe it. There had to be more to the story - no way would he have been so selfish . Finally got him to agree that (if he had done that ) I would be justified in being annoyed and angry and feeling the way I had felt... which I guess is a fairy step in the right direction...

It is so hard when you have DC - you don't want to upset their lives for something so 'minor' so you put up with it.
But then I can't face spending the rest of my life picking up after him. But then my fear is when the DCs are older if you do leave you are then sending them the message that their whole childhood was based on a lie...if that makes sense...
Sometimes I wish you could turn the clock back - I wouldn't not have my DCs for the world -but either I should have chosen a different man or maybe been more assertive sooner...

I have to admit this is one of the reasons I won't be showing DH the article either - he'd just zoom in on the minor point about the stuff on the side, not in the dishwasher and never see the bigger picture.

My "this shows how much you really care" is considerably more trivial than yours, unlucky - yours is really bad! So rude. But here's mine:
A few Christmases ago, DH was, as usual, struggling to find me a present. We were in a large permanent market, and I'd seen this lovely scarf I really wanted - a lacy confection of pale green and yellow, in ginkgo leaf pattern, with the occasional sequin. Beautiful! I took DH to the stall, showed him the exact scarf, held it up to show him in fact, and said That one!
So on Christmas Day, there's a small soft parcel, I'm quite excited - but when I open it, it's a fucking mushroom coloured small shawl in wool crochet. Something you'd see on a 90yo grandma with a bun and small glasses. NOT the beautiful item I'd seen.
And he was annoyed I wasn't grateful!!
Not only was it the fact he hadn't bothered to listen/pay attention enough to get the right one, it was the fact that he considered his choice to be even remotely appropriate for me!
I couldn't actually speak to him properly until the market opened again a few days later, and I was able to take this mushroom monstrosity back and (luckily!) exchange it for the one I actually wanted.

He still didn't get it, probably still doesn't. In his mind - I wanted a scarf, I got a scarf, what was the problem?

Mrs Hath - It really is. If it's bad enough to make you miserable, and he doesn't want to change, it's bad enough to divorce.

Believe me, I've spent a lot of time mulling this over. For me, it's not.

So, he's prone to being a selfish git. That's something I have contributed to. I was enabling this shit in the first few years - lost in the mess of young kids and feeling like the house was my job as a SAHM.

I didn't say "we split the housework at weekends" because he was earning and I was not. Yes, I KNOW now, but, then, I was tired, depressed and barely coping - so, there wasn't head space to think "this is inherently shit and needs nipping in the bud"

I think that's quite common.

So, now, I'm reaping what I sowed. He's oblivious, in the main. He didn't get to this point alone.

And, there are 3 kids. They need their daddy and stability. That's a gift that's not to be chucked away without consideration.

He's not abusive. He's not aggressive. He's reliable. He loves us. We're a family. It's not dynamic or exciting or what I signed up for - but, turns out, life is kind of hum drum.

It seems MORE selfish to chuck that away, the security of our kids, than to accept that he's a bit of an entitled twat.

I guess I'm not utterly miserable. Just bitter, resentful and pissed off.

We'll see how this pans out.

Thumb, your shawl sounds lovely.

"I can't see myself going to a lawyer and saying "my husband is entitled and a bit of a twat". That's not grounds for divorce.

BEsides, there are 3 kids who need stability and their dad.

Yes, he's a bit of a child - but, the children see it. They comment that I do it all. And, they have already sussed that it's not ok to take someone else for granted.

So, I grudgingly accept it for now and wait for the penny to drop. He won't/can't see my point of view, but, one day, one of the kids will flag this shit up to him.

My plan is to teach the boys that if they show their partner that they cherish them by doing chores without being asked - they will get more blow jobs because they'll be irresistible.

And, the girl has a firm handle on not being beholden to anyone.

So, they'll be ok."

I can see all sorts of wrong there.
I'll start with 'so they'll be ok.' That is you telling yourself you have the situation in hand, when in fact your H has all the power here and is not afraid to shove your face in it.

Next is 'one day, one of the kids will flag this shit up to him.'
You need to be the leader here. This is not the job of any of your children. Nor is it the role of any of your children to contribute to any kind of a moral victory for you over your husband.

By the time any of them is ready to confront him on his attitude they will already feel nothing but contempt for you and one day they will show that too. 'Yes, he's a bit of a child - but, the children see it. They comment that I do it all. And, they have already sussed that it's not ok to take someone else for granted.' This is not a victory for you. This is a picture of a family of children living with a lot of anger and a lot of shame. Their comment that you do it all is not a compliment on your martyrdom. It is a plea to you to stop allowing him to walk all over you and dump the anguish of seeing that into their laps. The next step is open contempt for you for allowing it.

If you think you will teach anything to your children by mere words you are mistaken. Your children learn by your example and by your H's and by the example of how the two of you operate together. Your boys may end up doormats or they may end up entitled twats. Same goes for your DD. No matter how they end up they will be angry, and ashamed of their family.

Grounds for divorce is anything you feel it is.

There is more to bringing up children in a healthy environment than providing stability.

Stealth, I appreciate this is a complex situation, not black and white and I'm sure you can decide what's best for your family, no contest.

I'm going to play devil's advocate but just as a thought experiment - I'm not intending to tell you what to do, more points to mull over if you want to.

"My plan is to teach the boys that if they show their partner that they cherish them by doing chores without being asked...they'll be irresistible."

The danger with this, and I agree it's a nice goal, not sure the sex comment was necessary but w/e, the danger is that you produce a couple of Nice Guys. Setting housework up as something women are responsible for and men can earn special girlfriend points by doing is problematic because it means they are expecting cookies/praise/recognition for doing something which is or should be totally normal. Doing it and expecting praise for it is a step above not doing it, sure, but it's still annoying to be on the other side of. It would be better to instil the goal that all capable persons in a household contribute to the running of that household because that's fair. You could realistically do this with the DC, just get them doing stuff appropriate to their age and ability. It would help to rope DH in, too, but ultimately what you show them is better than what you say. If you get them into good habits they'll be more likely to continue them and consider it normal. Of course, if DH still refuses to pitch in, that will become clear to them, too.

"And, the girl has a firm handle on not being beholden to anyone."

Which is great, but again, words < actions. I had all sorts of ideas about how I would be treated in relationships and what I would put up with and in reality I was battered by the emotions that came with it and not as able as I thought to be objective or work out what I wanted. I said I'd live alone before I moved in with a partner, I didn't as it would have offended my partner at the time. I said I'd wait 5 years with somebody before having DC, I waited 9 months before his pestering me to come off birth control got me down, I knew my relationship was unhealthy, but didn't feel strong enough to end it. It's difficult and confusing. I had a lot of ideas about how I'd wanted to be treated in relationships but in practice, I ended up being confused when my boyfriends were nice in other ways.

"Your boys may end up doormats or they may end up entitled twats. Same goes for your DD. No matter how they end up they will be angry, and ashamed of their family."

OTOH, I don't believe this is the case. Lots of families are set up this way. Anger and shame isn't necessarily the only reaction. If anything they might think you a bit old fashioned, but who doesn't think their parents are out of touch?

That's the craziest thing I have ever heard unlucky83? Why on earth did you say you would take them?

Star I agreed to take them because I was worried he'd leave them at home alone (around 8 and 2 then) if I didn't ... He had suggested that at one point - would they not be ok for 30 mins or so...
(And he does get very anxious and irrational about being late...I couldn't trust him.)
And he was ready to leave before me - if he had walked out just as I was leaving I would be late as we all know it takes longer to get DCs out the door too...especially not planned, with no entertainment etc.
(For my 'drop them in at the surgery on the way past' idea I'd added time on to account for that)

Well that's more than a housework issue. He is obviously a terrible, abusive father. Why the hell are you with him?

The only grounds you need for a divorce are 'I want a divorce.'

But men know, unconsciously if not consciously, that women are trained to believe they can't leave. They know women will hang on in there, for the kids, for the stability. They know they can act like shits with no consequences. And you know the real kick in the gonads? These men are the men who, after 15/20 years of taking their wife for granted suddenly decide they don't love her any more and head off into the sunset with the younger OW.

It wasn't until I said to my DH that I was leaving and I absolutely meant it that he listened to one word I said. Up to that point he was just humouring me, waiting for me to get over my 'strop' so he could go back to doing just as he pleased. He assumed I'd be there no matter what and so he didn't have to worry about how I felt. It was only when he found out he was dead wrong about that that things changed.

Things changed and got better for me, and we are still together, but only because I made it absolutely clear that I wasn't standing for that shit any more. If he had decided not to listen, I would have left, no question.

Both my mother and MIL are in marriages with entitled men - men who aren't abusive but who are terrible partners. They have lost so much because of it, it's horrifying. They could have changed things, years and years ago, but they didn't and now they're in the last phase of their lives having wasted almost all of it with a person who doesn't really care about them. The loss is immense. It was seeing them and pitying them that made me put my foot down with DH. These years won't come back, and I absolutely refuse to waste them on someone who just takes me for granted.

Incidentally both of them have come out at some point with the whole 'what could I do?' defence and it makes me so angry - that helpless refusal to do the difficult thing that would make life better for everyone (except the entitled fuckwit). My whole childhood was based around my (lovely but ineffectual) father's inertia. He's not a bad man but he affected my life so badly and my mother did nothing to stop it. She is complicit. My DH suffered more. He learned how to be a man from a sulky, ignorant manchild. He is a good person at his core but he believed he should behave like his father and it almost cost him his family.

If you're staying, don't say it's for the children. It's not. They are not responsible for your relationship.

I'm reading and listening and learning.

Question I have for all those who say "don't stay in a less than satisfying, but stable, if, irksome, marriage" is "what replaces it?"

So, yes, he's lazy, entitled, annoying and disappointing - so, what, I leave him?

And, have to say to our (young) kids "your dad didn't excite me". Not, something solid, tangible that THEY'D see was a deal breaker - but, instead, an adult, vague, mess of disappointment, will seem like "couldn't be assed"

Am I alone?

The kids have security, they have all that that brings.

I have a good man, doing his best, which is, at best, a bit shit.

That's not two out of three, but, it ain't bad.

Go on, I can't be alone in this.

You don't say that our DH didn't excite you, more that he didn't respect you enough to consider you equal to him.
Only you can decide how much you are going to put up with, what you're modelling for your DC (as in, do you want them to end up in the same sort of relationship you are in?), etc. etc.

I'm in a bit of a cleft stick myself in that I'm in a foreign country, and not yet a citizen of that country (although a permanent resident). But I wouldn't be able to afford to live on my own, so I deal with what I have the best I can. And he is improving, steadily (not quickly enough but still!). But, like cailin's DH, he doesn't believe that I would genuinely leave (which, to be fair, at the moment I probably wouldn't) so that takes a lot of "power" away from me. If he genuinely thought I was about to go, I'm sure he'd step up a lot quicker - but I'm not in a position to threaten it and mean it just now.

You make your own stability for your children, is what happens. You do it on your own. You show them your strength, you show them that an adult relationship isn't supposed to be an ego trip, and you give them a parent they look up to and are proud of, not one who causes them the anger and anguish of seeing their other parent disrespected and let down, and worse -- tied up in doing everything and in the frustration of it all to such an extent that she has neither the time nor the emotional energy for them.