Financial control. What is normal?

[AngryMo]

I've lost count how many times I've tried to start this thread, and don't know how to articulate it as I don't really know what I want. It ranges from I need to leave ASAP to I might as well just stay.

The many questions that I keep switching between are:

Is DH emotionally/financially abusive? I don't know if I'm imagining it or if it is real.

How do couples manage their finances if one stays at home? I want to know what other people do to see if the way he manages it is normal or not.

Why does he on the one hand, show off to his friends about the money he's spent doing up our house recently and the flashy things he's bought, but on the other, makes me feel like I'm almost stealing his money when I need cash for housekeeping or other essential things for the children (we agreed I would stay home until kids are in school)? Why does he make me account for every single penny like we don't have any money when I know he has plenty? Why did he buy me an expensive gift for Christmas and splash out on expensive wines and things for our guests but then have a go at me for spending £7.50 on a gift for a friend's daughter, which he then checked the price of online to check I wasn't lying?

I'm exhausted living with him and he makes me miserable which can't be much fun for him either. I don't see how he can enjoy being in this relationship either. In the past he's humiliated me in front of friends, reducing me to tears in front of them, he's stormed off leaving me in a restaurant on my own with a full plate after I wanted to discuss what was wrong with us and how we could fix it. I've also had two panic attacks because of how he treats me. He never apologises in person but has by email but even the never spontaneously, always as a result of me telling him he needs to apologise.

Also, he doesn't really react when I tell him we should probably just split up and then pretends everything is fine after an argument's died down. Why does he do that?

I never get any real emotion from him and I don't remember the last time I thought what a lovely person you are. I used to, but that was years ago. I get so jealous when I see happy couples bantering away together, being affectionate with one another.

But then again, maybe I am a complete idiot, what was I thinking giving up my job to look after my children? Why did I hand over my financial independence? Is he right to control my spending so tightly? Should I have to ask every time I need to buy a new bra or want to take the kids out or need to buy a present for a friend? Maybe this is normal, I don't know. Maybe it is all his money and I don't deserve to be spending it. I rarely ask for money for anything frivolous. Maybe because he earns the money, if he wants to spend £2000 on an appliance I have no right to say it's too expensive. I'm so scared to tell him I overspent the other day by accident. He's never been physically abusive but I'm scared of his reaction. Often if I tell him something - anything, not necessarily money related, I wonder why I bothered because it's not worth the grief, so I keep many things to myself and it makes me secretive which I dislike. I am a very open person generally and it's not in my nature to behave that way but I feel forced to.

Thing is though because I am now financially dependent, he knows it's not that easy for me to leave. I don't know what to do. I love my children deeply and they are only small and need us to be together.

Anyone who can relate to me or has any experience, has words of advice, or even to tell me I'm being pathetic, whatever it is, I would like to know.

In a way I find it kind of helpful to have someone like Lea on the thread, because she is asking questions that I am still trying to answer. I know some of you have said it's pointless engaging, but they are still the things I'm grappling with. I am still not 100% convinced I am not partly at fault but I do recognise that his general behaviour is abusive. But I can't shake off the feeling of blame. Yet.
Also, it's good for me to see how you are handling her questions and opinions.

Thank you Nettle for all the links. Anything anyone can link to as to what constitutes financial abuse is helpful to me.

I can think of several reasons off the top of my head why someone may not be in a position to work at the moment: their own or DC's health issues and/or SN, other caring responsibilities eg an infirm parent, visa restrictions (note this may also affect benefit entitlement), logistical problems if they live somewhere without effective public transport to school/nursery/childcare, for example. Other conditions may apply. It's fair enough though to challenge OP to consider whether she really can't or whether a solution is possible. She doesn't have to tell us what it is but is clearly, although currently befogged, a smart person so if there is a way she can work it out herself once she's got the psychological barrier out of the way.

Mo, you had an agreement that you would take time off to look after the children that you had both brought into the world, and part of that agreement had to be that your DP would pick up the financial slack while you were doing so. It is totally not reasonable for him to expect you to conjure money up from nowhere to pay what was previously your share of the bills. I suppose it's possible he is genuinely worried about money - how would you know if he won't tell you what he earns? - but given that he doesn't seem to keep himself short it's unlikely. He could be saying "look, I know we planned for you to stay off until DC3 starts school but I'm finding it really hard to make ends meet, we do need another income, let's sit down and work out how to make this happen". But he didn't say that. You are simply not on the same page here. You're in the position of an unwaged servant, a household accessory even, rather than a life partner. Do this, do that, here's just enough money to run my house for me, what do you mean you need a haircut? I don't need you to have a haircut. And that, dear reader, is the difference between running a prudent budget and committing financial abuse.

Annie, thank you for your sympathetic reply. Do you know how many times I've told him in a completely transparent manner, the issue between us is NOT money, it's your attitude towards it and the way you treat me.

I've told him exactly what you said any reasonable person would do, can we please sit down like adults, partners, equals, and discuss even with the paperwork in front of us, what we need to do to run things properly and fairly.

But he is never willing to do that. If he tries to tell me about money and budgets, it's always in a way that's hard for me to understand, not because I'm stupid, but because I don't even know what is coming in exactly so how can I know if he's being truthful that x, y and z need to be paid. I'm not even given the chance to even disagree with some of his financial decisions. I might think x payment is too high or too low or too frequent or could be cheaper etc. but I'm never given the chance to offer my opinion.

I'm trying to write an email to WA and it's very long and dense with facts so my head is totally all over the place now.

But thank you, all of you, for reading these posts and offering your help and advice. This thread is a real and invaluable support to me.

Was there a sit-down, let's get on the same page discussion before the OP left her job? On her last day at work did they boyfriend say "great! Maybe someday after the kids are adults you can try a new career if you like! Meanwhile it will be great to have you home running the house for the next 18 years!" Or "if you really feel you must quit, I suppose we can manage for a little while.." Or ???? Without knowing the terms and clarity of the previous discussion we can't really know what sort of offer or agreement he made. We know he protested against a third child when the OP was managing to work with the two children. Do we know their ages?

Conceding that most people agree he is abusive - are not women generally advised to leave abusers? Does anyone think there is a realistic chance he will change his ways or is there a realistic legal means to compel him to do so? I would hope so for the OPs sake and her kids'.

Lea I have stated many times we agreed I'd stay at home until the youngest was at school. So from the day I left my previous job that would amount to about three years. I have also said before while I was on maternity leave, he received a big uplift in salary which almost covered the loss of my earnings. He has since has more increases, therefore my previous earnings are more than covered now.

Mix, you are right. The love is gone. The relationship is a lie. It would be very difficult to get it back, unless he does the one thing most people think he is incapable of: recognising his abusive behaviour.

Sorry. How old are the kids now?

Look, clearly he is mistreating you. It's not a loving relationship. But I think the pay raises are a red herring. In his shoes I would be thinking "well I am just back to square one because I have to cover her lost wages as well now". Not "yippee my hard work is paying off with a greater ability to save, invest or spend." You feel the pay raises excuse you from working but clearly he does not. And unfortunately as NettleTea's excellent posts show, while you are in the relationship you don't have much legal recourse. And other posters are advising you that couples counseling would be futile. So unless he has a drastic change of character it is looking like your only viable solution is to get a job. Or pursue criminal prosecution.

Would he marry you if asked? That would give you more protection if you decide you wish to stay with him.

He may well think that. But he needs to an understand it was an agreement, and with someone as financially acute has he is, he would know the implications of all of it before agreeing. That's what I'm struggling with.

I meant *astute

Yes, unfortunately he is demonstrating that he rues the agreement and is going to make it as unpleasant for you as he can.

Is there a relative whose opinion he values who could help you talk with him? Or can you send the kids to grandparents' or other relatives for a weekend to have time to yourselves to sit down and discuss this?

If he refuses to discuss any change and you have no legal standing to force him to make changes, I am afraid you are in a very difficult and intractable position. In your shoes I would start looking to re-enter my old career or train for a new one, if at all possible.

Even if you don't know his salary can you go to one of those GlassDoor type sites that make an educated guess of wages at various employers? It would give you a basis for a discussion with a solicitor or other advice-giver on what you could expect for the children in the event of break-up.

I've told him exactly what you said any reasonable person would do, can we please sit down like adults, partners, equals, and discuss even with the paperwork in front of us, what we need to do to run things properly and fairly.

Of course. But he isn't interested in treating you as an equal, an adult, or a partner. He isn't interested in managing money as a family. He doesn't want to give you any information, so you are always operating with the information he chooses to give you, and nothing more: and as you've seen, he is highly selective about that, in order to confound you and keep you on the back foot.

That's because his goal is to keep you in your place, subdue your independence, and retain you as an accessory to his lifestyle, or however he sees it.

The kind of confusion you're experiencing, and feeling you must be partly or entirely to blame, is typical in abuse. If you simply disagreed about something the situation would be much clearer.

Have you thought further about talking to your parents? Elderly parents are still parents, and still care about their children, you know. They might surprise you yet. Don't rule it out, anyway.

the pay raises excuse you from working

I suppose I'm nit-picking now but, really, looking after a house and three young children is bloody hard work. In my young day we used to terms like being in paid employment to distinguish, and I'm a bit shocked that a woman would refer to being a SAHP as not working.

Obviously I meant "working outside the home for an income." The OP used similar terminology when she said at the outset "he is desperate for me to return to WORK." I am merely conforming to HER use of the terminology, Atenco.

Having run a household myself for 35 years (and in fact for the past six years with sole care of two households due to elder family issues, including indoor and outdoor maintenance, financial support etc.) I am quite aware that looking after a house is bloody hard work.

Parsing words to find reasons to criticize me is not helping the OP. I am merely raising the same sorts of sensible, practical questions & issues as expat, Nettletea and others but for some reason you are homing in on my words and suggestions, ignoring that others also are posting in a similar helpful, fact-oriented vein vs. emotion-oriented indignation that really doesn't get the OP anywhere.

The thing is, it doesn't matter what we all think. This man is abusive and nothing will change this. How they came to an agreement when the third child was born for the OP to jack in her job and become a SAHP is by the by. It is not working for her now as she is being abused. And he will not change. So she has to get her power back or live like this. He's not interested in discussing it all and she is in an incredibly precarious position because she is not married to this person. And, again, we all know that dicks like this can and will eek out of paying CM or pay a minimum.

The stalemate is that she says she 'cannot work'. Perhaps there is some disability there? But otherwise, by chosing to not work, knowing he is how he is, a financially abusive twat, it is enabling the situation, which will continue and worsen because the longer one is out of paid employment, very often, the harder it is to get back into it.

I really hope the OP comes to see that life with this person is a non-starter and gets her groove back by getting some employment and regaining some power.

I am sorry, Lea, as I said I was nit-picking, and I may well have misused this term myself, to tell the truth, but in general I do think it is important and relevant in this context.

Really sorry to chip in right at the end without rtft but has someone mentioned the Freedom Programme?

Do it op. Go along to the groups if possible (free childcare at a lot of day time groups) - look on the site, click 'find a course', email the facilitator, who will get back to you within the week, usually, to tell you venue and times. It's a wonderful course, there's something about meeting with other women who are going through similar, it really wakes you up, gives you confidence, in record time.

Wishing you the best op.

Thank you for that information Springy. I'm looking it up as yes meeting others in RL going through similar sounds like it would help. I'd be scared of bumping into someone I know so would have to try a slightly different area.

I'm dropping the D and I'm dropping the H, so I'll just call him P. Anyway, P has gone away for work and I'm sitting here drinking the wine he told me I couldn't open when I went to get myself a glass as it's 'too expensive' (£10 a bottle, why did he buy it then...) and he's messaging me asking how the kids' sports activity went today. As it happened it was cancelled, but I felt like asking him if he's going to deduct £20 from my week's money seeing as I'm drinking his wine and the sport was cancelled. He can't do this to me.

The more you share the more you reveal how abusive he is

Not allowed to drink a glass of the wine because it's not a bargain bucket £4 one

I wouldn't bother telling him it was cancelled. And fuck 'his' wine. He's a dick. I'd use this week to get on a Freedom Programme and finding a job so I could leave his book ass.

But expat, I CAN'T get a job right now! But yes I know what you mean, and I'm making my plans.

AngryMo Hi and sorry I've only just seen this thread. You ask in your OP if anyone reading it has experienced the same or can relate to it and I have and can. I could have written your post 20 years ago, had MN been around! My friends actually encouraged me to get married, with hindsight because they could see how vulnerable a position I was in. I have read the whole thread and am impressed by your honesty, integrity and growth over the last week. I have PM'd you. Love and best wishes.

Is there anything you can do from home? I dont mean any stupid MLM type stuff, but anything that you can fit in around your homelife to bring in some money and help you towards self employment? Take in some ironing? Any good at paperwork? writing? crafting and selling online? Although they are tightening up on self employment, you only need 16 hours to claim working tax credits as a single parent and that gets the job centre off your back (although if your third child is young you will be OK in that respect, but its certainly an option to start thinking about for once they start school) There may be reasons why you cant go out and get employed work, but self employment may be the answer.

Have you looked at entitled to to discover how much in benefits you would get
and child maintanance to see roughly how much he would need to give you

I suggest using this week to sort out and discuss all the stuff you need to find out where you stand in regards to getting your equity out of the house, and what money you may be entitled to. And getting yourself onto the freedom programme.