Financial control. What is normal?

[AngryMo]

I've lost count how many times I've tried to start this thread, and don't know how to articulate it as I don't really know what I want. It ranges from I need to leave ASAP to I might as well just stay.

The many questions that I keep switching between are:

Is DH emotionally/financially abusive? I don't know if I'm imagining it or if it is real.

How do couples manage their finances if one stays at home? I want to know what other people do to see if the way he manages it is normal or not.

Why does he on the one hand, show off to his friends about the money he's spent doing up our house recently and the flashy things he's bought, but on the other, makes me feel like I'm almost stealing his money when I need cash for housekeeping or other essential things for the children (we agreed I would stay home until kids are in school)? Why does he make me account for every single penny like we don't have any money when I know he has plenty? Why did he buy me an expensive gift for Christmas and splash out on expensive wines and things for our guests but then have a go at me for spending £7.50 on a gift for a friend's daughter, which he then checked the price of online to check I wasn't lying?

I'm exhausted living with him and he makes me miserable which can't be much fun for him either. I don't see how he can enjoy being in this relationship either. In the past he's humiliated me in front of friends, reducing me to tears in front of them, he's stormed off leaving me in a restaurant on my own with a full plate after I wanted to discuss what was wrong with us and how we could fix it. I've also had two panic attacks because of how he treats me. He never apologises in person but has by email but even the never spontaneously, always as a result of me telling him he needs to apologise.

Also, he doesn't really react when I tell him we should probably just split up and then pretends everything is fine after an argument's died down. Why does he do that?

I never get any real emotion from him and I don't remember the last time I thought what a lovely person you are. I used to, but that was years ago. I get so jealous when I see happy couples bantering away together, being affectionate with one another.

But then again, maybe I am a complete idiot, what was I thinking giving up my job to look after my children? Why did I hand over my financial independence? Is he right to control my spending so tightly? Should I have to ask every time I need to buy a new bra or want to take the kids out or need to buy a present for a friend? Maybe this is normal, I don't know. Maybe it is all his money and I don't deserve to be spending it. I rarely ask for money for anything frivolous. Maybe because he earns the money, if he wants to spend £2000 on an appliance I have no right to say it's too expensive. I'm so scared to tell him I overspent the other day by accident. He's never been physically abusive but I'm scared of his reaction. Often if I tell him something - anything, not necessarily money related, I wonder why I bothered because it's not worth the grief, so I keep many things to myself and it makes me secretive which I dislike. I am a very open person generally and it's not in my nature to behave that way but I feel forced to.

Thing is though because I am now financially dependent, he knows it's not that easy for me to leave. I don't know what to do. I love my children deeply and they are only small and need us to be together.

Anyone who can relate to me or has any experience, has words of advice, or even to tell me I'm being pathetic, whatever it is, I would like to know.

One of the saddest things a friend experienced. The house was in joint names so she got half. Friend had always paid for childcare costs, activities etc. so when they split he had £70k in savings and she had £0

@RandomMess: But the problem the OP has is there is no "family money." She is not married to the father of her children so she has no legal claim on his income. (At least here in the US she would not.) Perhaps she could demand child maintenance if they split but could she demand support for herself? What if he died - would she have any legal claim on his estate in her own right?

It's one thing to say "all decisions about family money should be decided equally between the partners regardless of whether or not they earn a paycheck." It's another to define what exactly is "family money." Does having a child or two or three in common automatically give one say over how the other spends $$? (Not according to people in the other thread about the ex wanting to lower CM.) Does living under the same roof give two parties the right to have input over how each spends his/her money? Does that hold if they are roommates, friends with benefits, romantic partners or ?? Does it matter if they have been living together six months, six year or one week? Or only if they are married?

Does living under the same roof AND having children in common confer legal rights that are not present under the other scenarios, when the parties are unmarried? (I'm not talking about moral decency here because obviously that is not what motivates the man in question.)

What about scenarios where couples have decided to end their relationship but one allows the other to continue living in the house for financial or other reasons? (I've seen such anecdotes many times on Mumsnet.) Does one still have financial accountability/obligation to the other because they both are under the same roof with their kids? How does that work? What constitutes the "end" of a relationship in this case? Whose word counts for more?

Without legal marriage it would seem to me that many of these issues are open to interpretation. If I'm not legally accountable to Person B for how I spend my money, how can I possibly be abusing them via the financial choices I make? Again, speaking legally, not morally. It is clear the father of the OP's children is not interested in being a nice or decent guy from her POV.

I think the OP needs to get authoritative answers to these questions and any others she may have, ASAP. I hope there is a reputable lawyer available to her.

Being controlling is being abusive.

If a couple (regardless of marriage) have children together and live under the same roof it is family money. One partner is doing all the unpaid work and one is doing the paid work (enabled by the other). They are working as a family unit.

Sadly in England/Wales the law is that it is marriage that make it count.

He is being a controlling abusive arse IMHO - what's his is his and what hers is for her to spend on his DC so he doesn't have to so he can get is sports car asap.

Is it family money between unmarried partners under the law, or are you stating your opinion? That's what I am asking, what is the law? Is the boyfriend accountable to her under the law or liable to be accused of abuse for not sharing his income appropriately, under the law?

maybe OP had to use her overdraft because she was paying for more than a fair share of bills (considering she only earned 1/3rd of what he was) and when on Maternity pay she only had that, but probably still coughed up the same amount each month. I get the idea that OP probably paid for all the child related stuff until she left work when she had no 3.
Who paid for the childcare? how was that split?

Nope under law what his is his and what's her is hers.

I was trying to clearly lay out how a functioning relationship works and what is fair because that is what the op was asking and because she is so worn down that she doesn't believe she is entitled to have any say in the their financial circumstances.

Expat, I understand that receiving benefits is not a long-term solution under this government, but it could well be a short-term solution. Until OP is in a position to work, at least.

'but it could well be a short-term solution. Until OP is in a position to work, at least.'

The lifestyle reasons she has for not working will cease to exist on benefits, particularly with regards to the house if she leaves (it will be months before a court sorts that out), meanwhile, it's up to the council where all of them go, or up to the whims of whatever LL will take a lone parent with three kids on benefits, with the LHA caps being in the toilet as they are. Even with a guarantor, it's very hard to get housed in such a situation.

But get a job, and it gives her far more leverage. The longer she is out of work, the harder it is to get back in.

There is no 'family money' as they are not married, and I don't doubt he will screw the children when it comes to maintenance because he is an abusive git.

This is why it is a mistake for unmarried partner to jack in their job or go part-time/scale back their career to look after the children unless he/she is independently wealthy or means of making a living.

Not a week goes by without a thread on here who does this and is left with absolutely nothing.

AngryMo....I just want to say this. When you are being attacked by skewed information, irrelevant data, and poor logic, by an otherwise reasonable sounding person, you can spend all day trying to unpick it. And it's tempting to do so.

Or you can just step away. It is not worth engaging with, because there is no desire for understanding or resolution there. There's a very different goal in mind.

Thinking of you

What trackrBird said.

LeaLeander. Is the boyfriend accountable to her under the law or liable to be accused of abuse for not sharing his income appropriately, under the law?

That is a false dichotomy. Your behaviour on this thread is out of order.

Trouble is, having her name on the mortgage means that she is going to be on sticky ground if she applies for any benefits anyway. She is between a rock and a hard place. Legally he doesnt have to support her, but he DOES have to support the children, so if he is earning a lot, she could legally seperate from him yet stay in the home, trying to see if they can push through a sale as soon as possible to release her equity. She can apply now for the child benefit and child tax credits, she can apply for maintanance for the children from him.
She may qualify for income support depending upon the age of the youngest, or if there is a health reason why she cannot work it may be worth looking at ESA or DLA/PIP. But staying as a couple she is totally reliant upon him actually doing the right thing, and I think we can all see that he is not going to do that.
OP should be covered for the deposit she put into the house, but again if he has paid the mortgage ever since, even if she has covered bills and more recently covered all the childcare to allow him to work, its going to potentially be very tricky to work out how to divide up any increase in equity since they have owned the house - it may cost more than you get in legal fees arguing out. The fair way would be a 50/50 split of the increase, plus original deposit, but I can see him arguing that he is entitled to all the increase as he has paid all the mortgage.

Kittybiscuit, how can I be out of order for seeking objective information such as the query you quoted? I am asking sensible questions that the OP desperately needs to find the answers to, in order to move ahead for herself and her children.

If the boyfriend has no legal obligation to account to her for how he spends his income, it follows that she has no legal right to accuse him of depriving her of funds or otherwise being unfair. He hands over money at his pleasure, apparently, under current law. (It would be interesting to know if he would be liable to hand over more, under CM laws, should they separate, than he does currently.)

At any rate appealing to his sense of family loyalty, fairness and other emotional agendas has got her absolutely nowhere. She needs to determine where she stands under the law and let that inform how she wants to proceed.

We need to deal with how the world really is, not our various subjective versions of how we wish it were or think it should be.

Thank you for the interesting factual information, NettleTea.

How's it going Mo?

this explains financial abuse
It would seem that it is an odd situation where he can definately be classed as financially abusive, and possibly charged, because they are set up as a family unit, although the advice all seems to point as to helping her leave, and the problems regarding the house would be as Ive set out above.

Being married makes no difference in regards his responsibility towards the children. It may, depending upon her personal circumstances, make a difference towards some spousal maintanance. It would definately make sure that she got her fair share of the house and his future pension, because her needs and ability to earn in the future whilst supporting the children would be balanced against his ability to earn whilst living alone - this is why women often will be given a larger share of the assets at the time of divorce, because their earning capacity is greatly reduced by having day to day responsibility of the children, which impacts on their career. Taking a break for children can have a hugely detrimental effect on personal career advancement which is why it really needs to have careful consideration, especially if you do not have the protection of marriage.

The court and the law however recognise the value of a SAHM, they recognise that the man benefits hugely from having someone take care of the home and children, and often they progress far more once they dont even have do to 'their share' at home because the wife is doing it all. Sadly, without being married, you are reliant upon your partner being of the same mind, and valuing your input as just as important and equal as theirs. This is tricky enough, due to societies lowly opinion of anything that doesnt bring in an income, and the low value placed on housework and child raising, but it is hugely significant when things go wrong. It would seem that it is one of those crimes where he can be prosecuted for being financially abusive, yet there is nothing that could be done prior to appealing to his better nature, that can force him to act in a less abusive way.

This leaves you with a simple choice. Stay and put up with it, or get out and claim what you are rightfully entitled to for the children from him, and try to get your equity out of the house.

here is a page about separating when cohabiting

and one specifically about dividing a mortgaged house

and one about protecting your rights in a property this is something I completely forgot about, and you need to do ASAP

I have been absent for several days, it seems you haven't rung WA even if simply to get information from a professional, to build up some strength, get some determination. Please just do this. You are not obliged to act upon any advice.
May I project, that you would rather stay at home in spite of the "conditions", than go back to work ?
Have you tried looking at the job centre web site even ?

She did contact WA - there is a post in the thread from yesterday AM about it.

Wow mix. Read the thread. What's with the tone?

Sorry, missed the WA part.

I ask the going back to wok question, because I was there. Sorry again, no tone intended. Have been trying to encourage OP since the beginning.

Thank you NettleTea - your wisdom and resources are good antidote after the judgey-pants of the past day or two.

Yes, soz. I missed all of p.15
Another thought, Could you get your MIL to refuse to do the unpaid nanny job ?
Once you are in a position to go back to work. your P will want to offload the children to her. She can refuse. He will have to pay for a nanny. (or will he make you pay ???) therefore, he might suddenly realise what value you have.

I fear however, that the love has been shot out of your relationship. Whatever happens now, You have no life. He has taken all independence from you. If he "loved" you, he would love for you to go out with old girl friends & have an evening of fun.....