Financial control. What is normal?

[AngryMo]

I've lost count how many times I've tried to start this thread, and don't know how to articulate it as I don't really know what I want. It ranges from I need to leave ASAP to I might as well just stay.

The many questions that I keep switching between are:

Is DH emotionally/financially abusive? I don't know if I'm imagining it or if it is real.

How do couples manage their finances if one stays at home? I want to know what other people do to see if the way he manages it is normal or not.

Why does he on the one hand, show off to his friends about the money he's spent doing up our house recently and the flashy things he's bought, but on the other, makes me feel like I'm almost stealing his money when I need cash for housekeeping or other essential things for the children (we agreed I would stay home until kids are in school)? Why does he make me account for every single penny like we don't have any money when I know he has plenty? Why did he buy me an expensive gift for Christmas and splash out on expensive wines and things for our guests but then have a go at me for spending £7.50 on a gift for a friend's daughter, which he then checked the price of online to check I wasn't lying?

I'm exhausted living with him and he makes me miserable which can't be much fun for him either. I don't see how he can enjoy being in this relationship either. In the past he's humiliated me in front of friends, reducing me to tears in front of them, he's stormed off leaving me in a restaurant on my own with a full plate after I wanted to discuss what was wrong with us and how we could fix it. I've also had two panic attacks because of how he treats me. He never apologises in person but has by email but even the never spontaneously, always as a result of me telling him he needs to apologise.

Also, he doesn't really react when I tell him we should probably just split up and then pretends everything is fine after an argument's died down. Why does he do that?

I never get any real emotion from him and I don't remember the last time I thought what a lovely person you are. I used to, but that was years ago. I get so jealous when I see happy couples bantering away together, being affectionate with one another.

But then again, maybe I am a complete idiot, what was I thinking giving up my job to look after my children? Why did I hand over my financial independence? Is he right to control my spending so tightly? Should I have to ask every time I need to buy a new bra or want to take the kids out or need to buy a present for a friend? Maybe this is normal, I don't know. Maybe it is all his money and I don't deserve to be spending it. I rarely ask for money for anything frivolous. Maybe because he earns the money, if he wants to spend £2000 on an appliance I have no right to say it's too expensive. I'm so scared to tell him I overspent the other day by accident. He's never been physically abusive but I'm scared of his reaction. Often if I tell him something - anything, not necessarily money related, I wonder why I bothered because it's not worth the grief, so I keep many things to myself and it makes me secretive which I dislike. I am a very open person generally and it's not in my nature to behave that way but I feel forced to.

Thing is though because I am now financially dependent, he knows it's not that easy for me to leave. I don't know what to do. I love my children deeply and they are only small and need us to be together.

Anyone who can relate to me or has any experience, has words of advice, or even to tell me I'm being pathetic, whatever it is, I would like to know.

Ugh. Regardless of whether I'm right or wrong, I agree about his contempt for me anyway. There is no love or affection or concern for how I feel in all of this. He's admitted that he doesn't do "emotional support" or similar, whatever it is. I hate him so much. I didn't sign up for this and he wasn't like this before.
I know you don't need/want to hear details but my argument regarding the card was what if one week I know want to spend let's say £50 but need £25 to spend on something else (always essential), how do I access the £25 if it's on the card (if the limit is £75 per week). First he said well ok then in that case I'll transfer the £25 to you. But then he stumbled when I said, well what if I only spend £30 in two weeks, are you going to transfer £120? Yes he says. But then no, because I can't see where the money's going.
I said well I don't want the card, it's too restrictive to me. So he said well if you don't use it, you'll all starve. Excellent. A nice result for an argument on a Thursday evening.

Lea, I used to work until child number three. This is the first time I've stopped since we've been together. We had an agreement about me stopping temporarily. This is not something I decided without his initial support. He might not want to be the sole provider now, but that is what we agreed to so if he's changed his mind, it's not my fault.

I'm exhausted living with him and he makes me miserable - surely this says it all. :(

Why does he need to see where the money is going? Is he saying he doesn't trust you?

In your op you say he checked a price online because he thought you were lying.

Very odd mentality.

He doesn't seem to see you as a family. Why have you never married? You may well have said earlier in the thread but I missed it.

Did he want three children? What is his view of what family life should look like?

He doesn't trust me because when I was working I still used my overdraft facility. He paid it off when I stopped and then says he doesn't ever want me to use it again.
He did ask me to marry him a long time ago. Then we just decided we wanted a baby more than we wanted to do the whole wedding thing, so that's what we did. Not that odd, is it?

He would have been content with two but I desperately wanted another, so he agreed. I certainly didn't force him! But he often starts sentences "if we only had two children, x or y would be much easier". Well it's too late to think like that. And our third child is totally loved and adored and I hate to think in those terms, even though yes I'm sure it is easier to do many things when there are only four to consider as a family, and not five.

So when you were working why were you in overdraft because you earned far less them him but were expecting to contribute as you did before and paid for all the child related expenses?

I'm concerned that you only have £75 a week for a supermarket shop for a family of five! Is the youngest still in nappies?

That must be really tight and difficult to achieve.

How dare he!

Well, you hate him and he doesn't trust you with money. Sounds grim. I would be getting back to work ASAP because to be honest it sounds as if one way or another you are going to need to support yourself in the future. The sooner you get back into it the sooner you can climb into a decent-paying position.

I would not trade my self-respect and autonomy for SAHMhood to a man who feels contempt for me, no matter how badly I wanted to stay home with the kids till they are of school age. It's just not worth the long-term costs. Plenty of people work and still raise happy, healthy and well-adjusted kids.

He sounds like an ass but I don't blame him for the debt-free stance. There is a difference between consumer debt from spending on fluff and depreciating assets, and home loans on appreciating assets.

I don't know exactly, I paid most of the utility bills and things, while he took care of the mortgage but I can't remember exactly what the arrangements used to be regarding everything else. He always knew about the overdraft but I suppose as long as I was still earning it didn't matter to him.

Angrymo
You made reference to Halva, is your family originally from overseas? Even if you are several generations on?

I'm just conscious that traditions and roles may be perceived differently in your home than for example in mine and that whilst lots of MN can tell you how things work in their homes, your battle may be even greater to overcome than the comparisons you have found on this thread.

Single mum btw. Much easier in most ways.

He's cut the budget right down so in effect forcing me to supplement it myself. Those amounts were just exemplary though. No, the halva thing has nothing to do with my background.

So you are living on a shoe string whilst he saves up to buy an expensive sports car????

You are going to feel very rich when he starts paying you child maintenance.

It really truly sounds over already. I'd cancel dinner tomorrow tbh.

No. I have no idea if he actually has a little fund right there for his car, but he does talk about getting it in six months' time or so, so he must, but I am making an assumption. Maybe he's waiting for his bonus or something, I wouldn't know.

You know roughly what he earns, roughly what the bills for the house are, food etc. so how much is their probably over each month? I'm guessing a fair bit unless you have a HUGE mortgage.

I think your only consideration is whether you stick it out until you find a job before telling him it is over and that he needs to pay you the CMS maintenance rate. There is no guarantee he will move out so you could be stuck in the same house for a while yet!!!

He is messing with your head. He sounds like a cat playing with a mouse. All this at a cost to your confidence and self-esteem. No matter how often he wrong-foots you in arguments, you know this is not right. Everyone here knows this is not right.

I said well I don't want the card, it's too restrictive to me. So he said well if you don't use it, you'll all starve.

Not a subtle abuser, is he? He needs to control you so badly, he'll openly use a threat like that. And I note he says 'all', meaning his children as well.

AM, if you feel able to call or email Women's Aid anytime, do tell them what he said.

Why is it abuse to expect a dependent to stick to a budget?

Ok.

The OP is an equal in the marriage. Budgets are agreed between equals. Both parties get an equal say and equal access to family money. Exceptional expenditure - all of it - is discussed between the parties, as adults, and agreed on.

Spending extravagant sums of money on gifts yourself, and then having a row about a £7.50 gift purchased by the other party - while accusing them of lying, and checking to make sure they aren't - is controlling and abusive.

Feeling entitled to spend £2000 on a gadget, while your partner dare not ask for any frivolities for fear of angering you, is abusive.

Forcing your partner to shop in one shop only, with a budget you control to the penny, is controlling and abusive. It's not just about the money here, he doesn't even want her to have a choice about where to shop.

Not trusting your partner to purchase school uniform successfully, and quizzing her on the matter until she is reduced to tears, is controlling, infantilising and abusive.

Obliging your partner to ask for money for every little purchase, and account for it in detail, until she is scared to even ask - and when you have plenty of money anyway (see original post) - that's controlling and abusive.

Finally, telling your partner that if she doesn't agree to financial control, she and her children will starve, is an overt threat.

Sorry to belabour the point, but it's important. I know all about sticking to budgets. There's nothing here about sticking to budgets.

He sounds completely and utterly vile. You need to get back to work and get the hell away from this nasty abusive excuse for a man, for your own and your children's sake.

Brilliant post trackr

Trackr, thank you for answering Lea's question. I would have had the same question when I'm in my doubting phase. One moment things can seem OK and I feel silly for complaining in the grand scheme of things, and the next I am seething with rage for allowing this to happen. In a skewed way though, sometimes I can see why he thinks he's within his rights to behave the way he is so. Just the way Lea's question seems utterly reasonable.

Mo, if he sat down with you, showed you the family finances, and the two of you together decided on some financial goals (pay off the mortgage, save up to replace your car) and together came up with a budget...then yes, he'd be reasonable to expect you to stick to it. And you'd be reasonable to expect the same of him.

Lea's question is disingenuous. He's not 'expecting you to stick to a budget'. He's unilaterally deciding that he can have anything he wants, including extravagant luxuries that don't benefit his family, and that you and your children don't deserve to be adequately clothed.

The reason we decided, as a society, a long time ago to give people welfare payments and not just dole out food and secondhand clothes is that we recognised the basic dignity inherent in having your own money, even just a small amount, and to make decisions within that amount.

I know you have no savings. But you do know that if you split, he'd have to pay child support? And it would be actual money, that you would then get to spend? He can't 'support' his children in boxes of cheap groceries and the occasional handmedown pair of shoes? You'd be far better off, financially, living apart.

Abuse and abuse apologists are very well-practised at framing things in a way thay sounds compelling and reasonable and has the victim doubting themself. That process has just been very powerfully highlighted on this thread.

Tracker's post is spot on. The whole exchange illustrates how abusers and abuse apologists frame events and situations to infer that the victim is being 'unfair' or 'stupid' or 'ridiculous'. And the abuser is just 'doing what any sensible person would have to do in this situation'. It's bullshit, OP.