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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Original poster

FIL kicked my DS (2) - advice please

157 replies

ChristmasAdvice · 28/12/2015 10:37

Hi

This is my first time posting but I would really appreciate some perspective please.

On Christmas Eve my FIL kicked my DS (age 2) and my DH and I are really struggling to come to terms with it.

I was not there but my DS had kicked my FIL. My DH had told him not to kick and he ran off, then headed back to do the same again. My DH stepped between DS and FIL to prevent it happening again. FIL said no it's ok I've got this- he let my DS kick him and then FIL kicked him on the shin. It was hard enough that he cried hard and the bruise is still there.

I went round and told my FIL that it was not acceptable but he was angry with me for going round rather than sorry for what he had done.

We have not seen them since. Any discussions on the phone have basically indicated that they think we are over reacting.

Any advice would be welcome.

OP posts:
Original poster
ChristmasAdvice · 28/12/2015 12:09

Westfacing he is in his 60's. Yes the fact it wasn't a reaction but premeditated makes it harder for me.

OP posts:
Youarentkiddingme · 28/12/2015 12:11

My DS has been told since day dot if you chose to hurt someone you take the risk they will hurt you back harder!
I've never used smacking or hit/kicked DS but I have pushed him away when he's been hurting me and he's fallen.
It's simple DS - if you weren't near me hurting me then you wouldn't have got pushed is what he's told.
We work on behaviour and appropriate responses around this.

I do agree with those saying its a generational thing - that doesn't make the kicking right but I think NC is a dramatic response when he's obviously not done this to older child so was a once off that he's told must never be repeated.

Original poster
ChristmasAdvice · 28/12/2015 12:12

Onceameer - thanks for that summary. I think it's harder to me to see objectively as it's such an emotive subject!

OP posts:
ElfOnTheBoozeShelf · 28/12/2015 12:13

The premediation, plus the fact that when you said it was unacceptable he got angry, not remorseful, is what is sticking out.

Personally I'm totally anti physical punishment (sending the message to anyone that it's okay to hurt them as long as you think you're right is really fucked up) but it's his attitude towards what he's done that seems the most concerning.

Original poster
ChristmasAdvice · 28/12/2015 12:16

My FIL had less to do with my other children as there were family tensions. We had only just got back on track after 5 years strained relationship.

The visit only lasted 30 mins.

OP posts:
Pipistrella · 28/12/2015 12:20

30 minutes and its the first time he's met your son?

The mind boggles

was there any joy between them at all during that time?

Wolfiefan · 28/12/2015 12:22

He doesn't see your child any more. End of. If the rest of the family can't understand this then avoid them too.
Toddlers shouldn't kick BUT a grown adult deliberately kicking a child is abuse.

Original poster
ChristmasAdvice · 28/12/2015 12:22

No sorry if that wasn't clear, this was not the first time he had met my son pipistrella.

OP posts:
annandale · 28/12/2015 12:23

I think a pause for thought is a really good idea.

Your FIL is totally in the wrong though I doubt he intended to do anything than 'teach a lesson'.

However, your DH needs to take this to heart and know that he can't trust anyone to react appropriately to a 2 year old pushing the boundaries - I agree with the poster who says with a 2 year old you need to be on it 100% when out and about. Which is why there's always such a huge sigh of relief when you get home with a child that age.

Westfacing · 28/12/2015 12:23

Christmasadvice I'm the same generation as your FIL - believe me it's not a generational thing to be so harsh on a toddler. No doubt there are 20-somethings who would do such a thing; some people are just made that way.

My advice, FWIW, is to make it clear to FIL that his behaviour is unnaceptable and he must agree to not repeat it. There is no need to cut off all ties - that's easier said than done, but you should ensure that either you or DH is present at all times.

The fact that he accuses you of being the bully shows that he doesn't have a sound attitude!

BathtimeFunkster · 28/12/2015 12:26

Yes the fact it wasn't a reaction but premeditated makes it harder for me.

Really? Confused

An adult whose instinctive reaction to being kicked by a toddler was to kick them back would be dangerously unstable.

I know what you mean about the horribleness of the premeditation of physical punishment, but it is really less awful than an adult hitting a child in anger.

wafflerinchief · 28/12/2015 12:28

well, my mum who's in her (late) 60s tells the GC that if they kick her, they need to consider that she'll kick back - I don't agree, but she's a very kind woman in general, with outdated parenting standards. I think the backstory is the key here in fact because i'm not sure there's much worth saving in the relationship? If it were otherwise healthy, you could set boundaries etc. I do agree though, hindsight's great, but your DH should have removed the DS, one kick, you're removed for a little while to calm down.

Bambambini · 28/12/2015 12:30

"Kicking adults isn't everyday normal behaviour for a two year old. IMHO. Maybe it is in some families but it certainly wasn't in mine or in any families. And if it did happen then it was dealt with in a firm way with the child knowing they had done wrong."

Some children just won't be told though and keep repeating the behaviour. Being firm doesn't always stop violent behaviour.

babyboomersrock · 28/12/2015 12:31

he is in his 60's

I'm at the end of my 60s and I know nobody my age who'd think this was acceptable.

If he'd kicked the dog, you'd have had people piling in to tell you to report it.

If he'd kicked your dd, it would probably have had the same reaction.

But no - it's a little boy of 2, not much older than a baby, and his grandfather is allowed to kick him because he's under stress/older/traditional in his punishment methods. And he's a man.

It's repulsive.

slithytove · 28/12/2015 12:34

Can you post a picture of the bruise? And how old is he in months?

  • NOT that that makes a difference to me, kicking is wrong
timelytess · 28/12/2015 12:35

Your DS is not the problem.
Speak to the police about the father-in-law's assault on your child.
Never see the in-laws again.

timelytess · 28/12/2015 12:36

And sack the husband if he can't protect the child against physical assault from his family members.

GoApeShit · 28/12/2015 12:38

I was about to type a reply but then I read what babyboomers said. I couldn't have put it better myself.

Disgusting behaviour.

timelytess · 28/12/2015 12:40

Sorry about the number of posts...
I bit my dd when she wouldn't stop biting me. But that was me, not a grandparent. I don't advise it. I did it, it worked. I haven't bit her since...
My dgd has been very rough with me at times. Eventually I said I would only see dd when her daughter was at school. This was explained to the baby and she stopped being rough. Her parents don't do violence. Parenting methods are improving in our family, there's no need to go back.

Inertia · 28/12/2015 12:41

To be fair, the DH did try and step in and prevent the second kick - the FIL told the DH not to get involved, allowed the child through to kick him, then kicked back.

The sensible thing to do would have been to remove the toddler from the situation entirely and deal with him after the first kick. However, the FIL actively encouraged the situation to develop - he didn't just kick back out of surprise or fear, he engineered the situation so that he would have an excuse to kick a 2 year old. And yet he calls the OP a bully...

GabiSolis · 28/12/2015 12:42

OP, the general rule of thumb with accepting advice on Internet forums is much like those on trip advisor. If you're smart, you'll dismiss the most extreme on either end of the spectrum. It's good to listen to everyone but don't be swayed too far either way.

Alicewasinwonderland · 28/12/2015 12:42

perfect way to discipline a child, your husband should have punished him in the first place, not wait for him to do it again anyway.

He calmly showed him exactly what he did wrong, didn't injure him, the child should have learnt his lesson.

That would be the same kids that try to hurt my little ones, and get accidentally walked on when I intervene.

mudandmayhem01 · 28/12/2015 12:42

I read a lot of threads on mumsnet and quite often when reading about a violent man, somewhere in the thread is about how there was violence in the home when a dh was a child. I have never read the thread where parents were feckless hippies, never correctly physically chastised him as a 2 year old and now he is a violent thug. You are doing the right thing protecting your child.

babybythesea · 28/12/2015 12:44

I'd agree that toddlers push boundaries. That's not the same as letting them kick.

DD2 is 2. She does something, I say no, she tries to do it again while looking sideways at me to see what I'm going to do about it. That's normal. She's learning that no means no means no. And that I will act and do something if she carries on. But she's going to try it on because she's two.

Some posters seem to construe this as horribly unruly toddlers allowed to kick with impunity which is not at all how I see it. And it's certainly no justification for someone kicking her back.

And the DH was going to intervene and stop the second kick, wasn't he? Which is what I'd have done if I'd seen DD was in one of those moods and was out to see what she could get away with. Except he was told it was ok. Maybe at that point he should have carried on but if my dad said that I'd probably step back, and possibly even hope that a no coming from someone else besides me reinforces the idea that what you're doing is wrong.

And adult kicking a child like that, wrong. You can't kick but I can? Violence is fine if you are bigger? You need to control yourself but I dont have to because I'm a grown up?

6 yo DD1 did the same boundary pushing and is no problem now so it is perfectly possible to turn a rule breaking toddler into a reasonable person. It just takes time.

PrimeDirective · 28/12/2015 12:50

Sure, those methods are not popular those days, but I suspect they are/were effective in terms of stopping undesirable behaviour.
They were effective for some, for others it taught them that you get people to do what you want them to do by being aggressive, and it's especially effective when you are bigger and stronger than the other person.

What FIL did was clearly unacceptable but you need to separate the action from the intent. Did he intend to hurt your DS or did he intend to stop him from kicking again?
Actually you don't need to separate the action from the intent because the action is so unacceptable in any circumstance. But his intent was to stop him kicking by hurting him. If his intention had not been to hurt him, there would have been no point in doing it.

The child is 2. 2yr olds sometimes kick, it doesn't mean the parent is doing something wrong. Children don't behave perfectly, however good a disciplinarian you are. Of course it needs dealing with, but kicking them back is not acceptable.

Most of the time when a child hurts an adult, the response they get is one of anger. They get told off. They also get told that kicking/hitting/biting hurts and they shouldn't do it. Most of all they get lots of attention. Even if they know what the words mean, they don't really comprehend them.
If you want to teach a child that their actions hurt people, the best thing the parent can do is to SHOW pain (not anger). Say OUCH!!!! cry, rub where it hurt. If they have hurt someone else, give all of your attention to treating and soothing the other person.
It removes attention from the child who caused the pain and teaches them much more effectively that what they have done has hurt someone and most importantly, what that means for the other person.
Very often the child just wanted attention from that person (particularly when it's an adult), they never really intended to hurt them.

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