FIL kicked my DS (2) - advice please

[ChristmasAdvice]

Hi

This is my first time posting but I would really appreciate some perspective please.

On Christmas Eve my FIL kicked my DS (age 2) and my DH and I are really struggling to come to terms with it.

I was not there but my DS had kicked my FIL. My DH had told him not to kick and he ran off, then headed back to do the same again. My DH stepped between DS and FIL to prevent it happening again. FIL said no it's ok I've got this- he let my DS kick him and then FIL kicked him on the shin. It was hard enough that he cried hard and the bruise is still there.

I went round and told my FIL that it was not acceptable but he was angry with me for going round rather than sorry for what he had done.

We have not seen them since. Any discussions on the phone have basically indicated that they think we are over reacting.

Any advice would be welcome.

If a 2 year old had kicked me I'd definitely kick them back but not hard enough to leave a bruise.

Kicking and aggressive behaviour is normal and common in two years olds. Anyone who has been to playgroups or soft play will surely have witnessed this. It needs to be challenged but not with violence. My toddler ( who is now a teenager and a pacifist and exploring Buddhism!) bite a child who took a toy dog off her at play group. I removed from the situation, said no but I didn't bite her back. She hasn't grown up into a violent thug quite the opposite

We are adults with self control, the only situation I would kick another human being would be in self defence or protecting my children from attack.

Any advice would be welcome.

Accept that you have all done wrong. FiL should not have kicked. DS should not have repeatedly kicked. DH should have intervened and disciplined DS sooner. You should have simmered down before going to see him and should jointly accept responsibility for your sons aggressive behaviour.

Given that, no one needs to go to the police.

No one needs to stop contact with anyone else.

The 3 adults should sit down together and all admit and apologise for their failings in this matter (see above).

There should be ways to move forward without assigning blame. For example:

You will not need to discipline our child again, so please don't. If DS is doing something unacceptable, you have every right to tell us and expect us to deal with it straight away.

Your son shouldn't have kicked, but he's 2 and you are teaching him to not to do it. You've managed to produce a well behaved 5yo so your methods work.

Your FIL kicked him back, which was common 20 - 30 years ago. If you take the view that that was his way of handling it and that's where he was coming from, even so the proportionality of his kick (leaving a bruise) was too great.

Your FIL is absolutely not listening to you though when you say you don't want your son disciplined in this way. These are your sons, and your parental method of disciplining should be respected generally, but specifically in such a controversial area as physical punishment.

"he has a lot on his plate" is an unacceptable excuse for leaving a bruise on a very little boy's shin. It is an excuse too; the people saying that know it shouldn't have happened.

He also spoke to you in a really unpleasant manner on the doorstep.

The crux of the matter here is that FIL is unrepentant and not accepting how you two want your child to be disciplined.

From what you said, you have a FIL problem and he's not open to reason. As someone said, maybe you will get further if your DH speaks to him. But possibly not.

In that case, I'd be very wary. Firstly cut down the visits and secondly when you do visit keep your little one physically away from FIL, you and your DH. If FIL doesn't like it - well, when he respects your limits, then the rule can be relaxed. It's not going to be easy in a practical sense mind you; but the alternative is accepting that that is how FIL disciplines, and let him get on with it (which I suspect is not okay by you!)

Fwiw I have a FIL like this, old farming type. He uses a kick or a slap to discipline the dog, and did the same with his own kids. He knows that no way would I tolerate that and so he makes (for him) a big effort and does not do that with our children. I can see how much of an effort he's making since physical discipline is very much his natural experience, and I appreciate that effort. It also means we can go visit him more because I can trust he -won't- hit.

I grew up in the '60&70's and have never felt the need to kick or bite my children. Fil is way out of line, I would not be visiting him again. No one puts their hands, or feet, on my children!

I think it's wrong what FIL did.. However, I feel that your DH should take a big part of the blame. He was in charge and he was not 'on it'. He should've stepped in sooner before it got to that point.

I'm not saying your DH is crap or anything like that, but this should be a lesson for him to have had more control of his 2yr old son.
My DH has been similar on occasion when our two young boys go OTT. I nip their behaviour in the bud quickly (no violence of course). It's like I know it's going to end in tears before it does. My DH, although a fantastic Daddy to all 4 of our kids, 'doesn't' nip it in the bud quick enough, especially when his parents are here. It's like he can't multi task talking to his family and keep an extra eye on the boys play. So my point is.. 2 yr old boys need tighter leashes! It's a difficult time, 2-3yrs, especially I found with our 2 boys.

I think you reacted correctly. FIL actually left a mark. And he should never had kicked him back like that.

It's a regrettable incident and I feel for your little boy. But lessons need to be learnt here, and I think they have.

Sorry, that last paragraph sounds crap! I mean.. Learn from it and move on. Watch ds and watch fil and DH watch the his ds more closely. X

A two year old is learning boundaries.

A grown man is an arsehole.

He kicked hard enough to leave a bruise - if that had been one of his parents, SS would have been involved.

This man is a nasty bully, who doesn't think he did anything wrong, and is being backed up by his family.

Keep your DS far away from him.

What calzone said.
It's a well recognised old school form
Of parenting / reprimanding that my lovely 83 yo dad still believes in.
Few people do
Nowadays and I would never condone your fils behaviour but there is some hysterical overreaction here.
I suspect your son has not kicked and adult since .
Get over it and move on.

What FATEdestiny said ^

it's the attitude of FIL aftwards that's the problem.

No it's not good to kick a little one and leave a bruise but an apology and a promise not to handle it like that again would put things right. If nothign else, the OP's parenting methods should be respected.

FIL isn't apologising, he isn't seeing anything wrong with it and he's being v unpleasant.

Yet another thread where some people are making excuses for male violence, no wonder our society is practically choking on it.

He kicked a 2 year old hard enough to leave a bruise, what sort of man does that?

The toddler wasn't repeatedly kicking him, he kicked him once. He possibly thought it was funny, because he's TWO, and went back to do it again. Dad tried to stop him, was told to leave it, toddler gets booted by a grown man. OP's parenting is brought into question....wtf?

Kicking adults isn't everyday normal behaviour for a two year old. IMHO. Maybe it is in some families but it certainly wasn't in mine or in any families. And if it did happen then it was dealt with in a firm way with the child knowing they had done wrong.

An adult leaves a mark on a child? I would never leave them in the same room. I would stay away for the time, and tell FIL why.

Hang on - some people seem to be excusing this on the basis of it being effective.

I don't think it is necessarily effective.

There may well be times when a child decides that on balance it isn't a good idea to kick someone as they may kick back.

There will also be a lot of children who do not learn from this very basic, animalistic behavioural method and continue to kick, or whatever the problem is.

What do you do then? Kick them harder?

It is against the law to leave a mark on a child from physical chastisement, or, as I prefer to call it, assault.

"The rest of DH's family back FIL because he has a 'lot on his plate"

Is that another way of saying FIL has a volatile temper and the rest of the family avoid rocking the boat? Because I think my long term reaction would depend on whether you think this was a one off, a but heavy handed and he probably feels like an arse (but won't admit that because he's also offended that you went round and told him off), or whether you think in future he would react to any misbehaviour on a child's part by reacting, escalating and making the whole thing worse. Either way I wouldn't be going out of my way to spend time around him.

Yet another thread where some people are making excuses for male violence

Yup.

It starts when they are toddlers and it apparently completely normal to go around booting people in the shins.

Violent girl toddlers aren't usually given a second opportunity to kick people.

Boys often are, because "they will be boys".

Thank you for all your replies.

I think our plan for the moment is to give ourselves some space before doing anything. As it stands I struggle to imagine letting my sons/daughter near him again.

I'm surprised at how many people think what FIL did was acceptable but many good points about intent that I hadn't considered. Thank you everyone.

Parenting methods have radically changed . My dd does a better parenting job than i did. I totally agree with ban on physical punishment BUT i wd check carefully before cutting off fil as he was following what used to be the tried and true method of dealing with toddler/s hurting others. Perhaps FIL is angry that you wd think he wanted to hurt dgs.

How old is this 'previous generation' FIL?

I'm 61 and it's certainly not the norm for me or anyone I know.

From what the OP says, he didn't lash out in a reflex sort of way but said to the child's father who was about to restrain the toddler "it's OK, I've got this". So the FIL planned to give a hard kick to a child so young, probably still in nappies!

Bastard.

I continue to be astounded at those who are going on about how a child shouldn't be kicking, etc. We all know about misbehaving children and different approaches to discipline but this is a grown man who retaliated against a toddler!

FWIW, I was a strict disciplinarian and didn't have much truck with naughty children.

christmas the tone of advice sometimes changes on MNb from thread to thread =) generally the view seems to be that physical chastisement is not ok. I think a lot of people have said it used to be ok so in context you can see where FIL is coming from.

My uncle became a step parent rather late in life and tried to deal with violent behaviour with this kind of old fashioned discipline. My mum had to have a word with him about how views on this have changed since he was a boy. Luckily he took it on board and changed to more modern parenting methods.