Think DD has just destroyed relationship with DH her dad. Final straw.

[Facefacts]

After a long rocky period with DD 17, I thought things were getting better. Again, tonight, DD determined to get her own way. Wanted boyfriend to come over we said no as I had to be away all day and overnight, husband had to leave later as working away. So after I left mid afternoon she has massive argument with poor DH who is already having counselling (partly from previous rocky period as well as other things). She is so unsympathetic and uncaring and verbally very attacking. DH in pieces, DD just continued attack. And flounced off to boyfriends saying would be back for 11. Just arriving back now. Refused lift back and DH couldn't face scene if just went to fetch her. He now has two hour drive and has to be up early. He's broken and I'm fuming with her. She has a brilliant social life. Saw boyfriend 2 or 3 times in week. Nightclub Friday and friend stayed over Saturday. Don't know how this is going to go but we have been on edge of throwing her out before for stunts like this. Is this what we have to do to save DH from total breakdown. When she decides she is doing something there is no compromise, no care of the impact on others. It seems the more understanding and caring we are the more she takes. Someone please give me a plan to change this before she throws away a lovely home and family.

Blythe. I haven't said she was violent and she isn't just very verbally aggressive but does stop me leaving rooms by standing in way. I don't push past her or anything though. (And I don't stand in her way either as some earlier post mentioned. I didn't mention violent that is something that another poster made up.

slamming & breaking doors is violent

Sorry, I wanted to say (and won't read the whole thread as there are so many issues raised here) but why don't you tell her your husband has PTSD, even if you are aware or think she caused it. I agree it's an elephant in the room and needs to be discussed.
I hope your situation improves.

Blythe. Sorry didn't complete my post to you.
She has been offered counselling at both schools but doesn't want it. I took her to gp while still a minor but counselling got children is only available through CAMHS and she wouldn't be judged needy enough for that. I have asked her to go to gp to arrange support that way but she won't. I had the same response about family therapy or private counselling. Schools have been made aware of situation and have been supportive. Have spoken to them this week and asked them to try again with suggesting counselling as she may respond better to that but no guarantee.
The slamming doors thing wax done in anger yes, but deliberately and repeatedly in order to break the door panels. I think she knows that is a trigger for bad memories for both me and my DH as reminder of some if the stuff that was going on with DS some years ago. Which is why it would be good if she would talk about it.

Pretty you seem determined to make judgements about my parenting skills and your posts from the start have been critical and provocative. With apologies in advance to anyone who has had these issues with their teens, I will say this to you pretty. My DD has issues that I am finding very difficult to cope with so have come on mumsnet for advice and support. But she is not pregnant, has never shoplifted or been brought home drunk as your teens have. So perhaps my parenting hasn't been so bad after all.

Another. We have skirted around ptsd issue yes as worried that if they start asking questions it will lead to telling them what is causing flashbacks. There is a possibility that it would help them understand but also a possibility of them feeling guilty for the rest of their life which we don't want to burden either of them with. It is really difficult so explain that dad is stressed, needs some support etc. DS gets it and. DD does sometimes but other times does a roll of the eyes and accuses him of being dramatic. Which he isn't btw it isn't in his nature. He was a mentally strong can cope with anything sort of person 4 or 5 years ago. As was I.

So for anyone who thinks full blown ASD meltdowns over months into years can't cause PTSD, then lucky you because you haven't had to cope with it.

If your DS's ASD meltdowns caused PTSD in your husband - could that not have had the same effect on your DD? He is being treated for his PTSD - could it be that she is suffering, untreated from PTSD?

That's been my point from the very beginning, face - your DD is not a bad teen. She is fairly typical of teens, in my experience.

It's not your parenting I'm critical of, it's your willingness to view your DD in such a bad light - paint her as the bad guy who is damaging her father, repeatedly posting on MN asking for ways to change her, rather than ways to accept and cope with the way you are feeling.

Rather than bemoan how awful everything is, look at the positives. You have described over several posts the negative aspects on your DDs behaviour. Yet the positives have only warranted a couple of lines.

So what if she tried to climb out of a moving car when she was 15? That's over, done with, no harm done. Focus on all the positives that have happened since then - times which have been enjoyable and conversations that have been beneficial.

Stop dwelling on things that could have gone better and start noticing the things that go well.

I don't know if you intended to judge my own parenting when you referred to shoplifting, drunkrness and pregnancy - it could be read like that. Just to assure you, it's not my own teen who I've supported through those experiences.

But she is not pregnant, has never shoplifted or been brought home drunk as your teens have. So perhaps my parenting hasn't been so bad after all.

Or perhaps your dd's behavi9our is not as bad as you seem to believe it is.

After years of dealing with your ds's mega meltdowns it wouldn't be surprising if you are hypersensitive to behaviour that others would regard as being typically teenage and I would be interested to read your response to Math's post at 05.01 today on the previous page.

I have same problems with my almost 16 DD. all she cares about is her life, her needs, her feelings - self obsessed! My son is 13 and he doesn't disrespect me the way she does. I'm a lone parent with a 3 year old too so it's bloody hard work. I've told her to get out many times

Italian. The website you linked to was a good one. Thank you. Suggests only giving consequences you can control, not a consequence the teen can sidestep in some way which my DD seems a master at as she is very clever and can outwit me.
Very difficult, DD had always said punishment won't work with her but talking will. Which works if we talk about something she actually wants to do and she agrees to it. But if it in dispute and we say if you do X the consequence is Y she does ramp it up a gear. Which has in the past made me fearful of following through as i know what is coming and the knock on effect it has sometimes had on DS. He is much better though and can cope with DD shouting and being aggressive in a way he couldn't before. Relatives in RL have said for some time I have been too soft on her and I know I have. She has got away with so much because I haven't always given consequences for what she had done sometimes. Still not sure that it would have worked which is where my dilemma is. Is that the right thing to do now or not? She will probably go off on one big style but I can't let her go on thinking that to be so aggressive and manipulative with people gets you what you want. But I don't want to jeopardise progress I have made with her on the school front.

Goddess, there may be an element of that tbh. I'm not trying to seek a diagnosis though just have some strategies. Although I am conscious that some conditions don't become apparent until adolescence as that was what happened with my DS.

Which has in the past made me fearful of following through as i know what is coming and the knock on effect it has sometimes had on DS. He is much better though and can cope with DD shouting and being aggressive in a way he couldn't before.

The effect in your DS, or on your DH? Or both?

It does sound from your posts as if every interaction with your DD has become an exercise in avoiding circumstances that affect other members of the family.

Sometimes, the needs of one member conflict with the needs of another. Whether that's through physical or mental illness, age, personality - no family has a harmonious set up where everyone can always has all their needs met all the time.

Thing is, If you always put the needs of one family member ahead in the needs of the others, due to the perception that their needs are more pressing, more important, or greater, then the other family members are frequently missing out on what they need. That has long term consequences.

I think it's far too late for you to re-teach your DD the "rules of engagement" and change the way she has learnt to conduct herself. Those are lessons she will learn, possibly the hard way, as she enters adult life. The fact that she's holding down a part time job, and has an active social life, suggests that she isn't using those techniques with others. The boundaries and way in which she relates to you have been established over several years and may now be set for life. You have a choice as to how you respond, but may never be able to change her.

Your DD did as she was told...there might have been some verbals and bluster - but if you take the advice here on MN for teenagers - ie to respond to the actions and not the words - then all is good...

she did bang/damage the door in during the verbal bluster but as you said of your DH at the time "He eventually did lose temper and fall apart"?

Did she damage the door before, during or after the point that "He eventually did lose temper and fall apart"? - or did he damage the door?

What does his losing his temper and falling apart look like? How often does this happen?

Do you think it is appropriate that he behaves in this way to his child?

Has he apologised to her for losing his temper?

Has he thanked her for doing as she was told?

Facefacts it sounds like you are recognising some good points about your dd and this is very positive. I am a great believer in the phrase 'Praise is magic'. Some kids do not know how to accept praise, and some need to learn to recognise praise and appreciate it, as they simply cannot. They need to learn to praise themselves.

My own experiene is of a dd who was very difficult (by my own standards and others) from ages 6-8 and for the last three years has had her ups and downs but her behaviour has got better. She has some ASD traits (as 'diagnosed' by CAMHS) and is also very dyslexic (as assessed by an educational psychologist), about three years behind at school but about three years ahead in terms of how her brain works (as assessed by a dyslexia organisation). All this means she holds it together at school, working three times as hard any one else (or so the teacher told me) and producing work that would look OK in Year three when she is in Year six.

The turning point for me was to realise that my dd was very emotional, not just the emotion of anger (which she displayed by hitting me, trying to lock me in the garden etc - age 8) but also the need for love and reassurance etc. She 'should' be very assured of our love, as we have always cherished her and treated her very lovingly, we are a huggy family, lots of time together etc, but DD has always needed bags and bags of reassurance. In order to help her I did about 6 parenting courses, and a further 2 courses in relation to adopting our son (who is now 5).

I am saying this because a turning point for me was realising my dd was actually very needy, someone who needed a lot of reasrruance she was loved and that she was capable, while also 'presenting' as a very assured person who 'knew it all'. So she was pretty mixed up, and she passed this on to us, her parents, a lot!

A few months after my realisation of the extent of my dd's needs, I went on a course called The family links nurturing course based around a book called The Parent Puzzle.

After this I changed how I related to dd and she matured to some degree and between these two things, we have moved on quite considerably.

These are my experiences, and I did not share them before as your difficulties seemed much more extreme than mine, and your child is a lot older than mine (DD is now 11), but after your last post I feel there are some points of connection. I said quite a while back that in some ways your and your dh sticking together as a kind of impenetrable block may be a sort of 'challenge' to your dd and to get professional advice on how to deal with this. I stand by that. I think that 'conventional' parenting advice is always that you back each other up (as parents) and stick to the same rules etc, and the difficulty that I see is that a child can feel out numbered.

We have general rules in our house (e.g. no hitting, no shouting etc) which both parents support and the kids know it is the rule (not saying it doesn't get broken a lot!) and at other times we allow our children to ask the other parent. E.g. DD wants a story late at night, my answer is no, but DH may well read her a story, he hasn't seen much of her in the evening and is happy to read her a story etc even thought it may be well past her bedtime.

Anyway, I am sharing this because if there is anything in my experience that can help you, I hope it will. We have tried as much as we can to start each day without a hangover from the previous day's difficulties, we try and do as many fun things as a family that we can - to bank some good stuff for when the shit hits the fan, and also just because it is fun. I try as hard as I can to notice when things are good, even a little bit good, and to praise in a genuine way and to encourage the kids to be proud of their own achievements.

I am certainly not the world's most tolerant person, and I screw up a lot! But I do really value all the professional input I have had. And I just wanted to share because there is light at the end of he tunnel for me and I so much hope there is for you too.

The boundaries and way in which she relates to you have been established over several years and may now be set for life. I do not believe the way people relate to us have to be set for life. Things can change, it can take time. An element of respect from all to all could change things. Thinking things are always going to be this way may not be helpful, it can make people feel defeated. But if the OP wants her dd to change how she acts then the OP will also need to change how she acts. It is a joint effort, IMHO.

Italian. Thank you for understanding me and my DD. Yout last two posts have made me cry.

Mathanxiety's post at 5.01 is excellent.

My DD has issues that I am finding very difficult to cope with so have come on mumsnet for advice and support. But she is not pregnant, has never shoplifted or been brought home drunk as your teens have. So perhaps my parenting hasn't been so bad after all.

Why is the result of this train of thought that "your parenting isn't that bad", rather than "your DDs behaviour isn't that bad"?

You seem to be so adverse to being called a bad parent that you cannot accept the advice you have asked for. Being a good parent is accepting that you have made mistakes and got some things wrong, and taking steps to fix it. None of us are perfect, but we at least have to try to do the right thing.

Lets put your feelings to one side for a second, and think about the 17 years of life your DD has lived. She has grown up in a household where her brother had ASD, with behaviour so extreme it has somehow caused PTSD in her father. She now has a father who is emotionally unstable, a mother who will protect her father at all costs, and all the trauma that she suffered during that time is just hanging in the air, unresolved. She is trying to navigate her teenage years through all of this. And yes you are catastrophising what is pretty normal teenage behaviour. Calling it normal does not mean it is acceptable btw, but it does need to be put into perspective.

You have yet to show ANY insight into how your sons ASD has impacted on your DD.

Your feelings about her trying to jump out of a moving car, that is behaviour that is upsetting, and very worrying. So is threatening to commit suicide, and walking out on your family to manipulate them into a different way of behaving. All of these things are a cry for help, and you recognise that when its behaviour being displayed by your husband, but not when it is being displayed by your DD. Why is that?

Why are you so keen to see your DH as the victim and your DD as the perpetrator, when the sad fact is that you are ALL victims here. You have all been affected by these things. You should all be in this together, why are you turning it onto the youngest member of the household?

Thanks Facefacts. Thinning of you today.

Must go to work....

LizKeen. Taking aside all the background (which I do know has an effect i have made allowances tried to get help), I am in a situation where if DD is told she can't do something she ramps up the confrontation and becomes verbally vitriolic, won't leave you alone, faces up to you and won't let you walk away from situation. So my choice is back down and let her do whatever she wants even if we have said no. Or finding a way of teaching her that she can't always get what she wants or intimidate and manipulate to get her own way. I think that is quite important for her to learn. It is in essence what I am asking for advice on. All the background stuff, while relevant does not take away from the essential question. How do I deal with this as a parent?

The reason I posted is that was a last straw. Over something that many people see as trivial. But it was one of many. She asked and asked and asked my DH to change his mind, turned nasty when he didn't and then did it anyway. If it was a one off, then fine but it is an established pattern and not a healthy one. Whether it is my fault my DDs fault or whoever I was asking for advice on how to turn this around. As it is an issue for us as a family and for my DDs future relationships.

DH didn't threaten suicide btw. He reluctantly admitted that there were a number of times he had been suicidal and struggled with suicidal thoughts. Saying threatened makes it sound manipulative. He was trying to hide it from me (and himself tbh) than throw it out as a threat.

Face

Hands up, I haven't read the whole thread. But what I have read rings bells with me. My DS has lost a lot of people throughout his 18 years. The latest in the list was his best friend. The first was his grandfather, closely followed by his (DS) own father, when DS was 7. From the time that DS went to secondary school, we have been locked in battle.

I honestly don't think that your DD is "really" bad. She's 17, pushing the boundaries, being quite selfish, stroppy, obstructive etc. which is quite normal for a teenager.

I note that your DS's SN has affected the "normal" family dynamics - and I say that not to cast blame on any one person at all. Just an observation.

In light of the effect that your DS's behaviour has had on your DH, and DH's reaction/coping with real life, I would gently try to get him to your GP for his and everyone else's sakes.

As other posters have pointed out, if your DH is badly affected by your DS's meltdowns, then your DD, who would have witnessed/live with this throughout her young life, would have been affected. She, being so young, wouldn't have the emotional maturity to navigate her way through without being affected.

So, my suggestions for a plan of action would be:

1. Your DH goes to see the GP for himself;
2. You go and see the GP for you, but also speak to the GP about resources that may be available for your DD. There may be an outreach programme designed to help 11-25 year olds.

Your DH does sound manipulative though. Whether it is obvious to you or not, there are many things you have said that makes it sound manipulative.

I did post an example of how that particular situation could have been handled differently up thread. How is your family life organised? Is there regular communication between you all about what the plans are? Think about that carefully, because sometimes we think everything is clear and everyone is aware when in fact we have not communicated properly at all.

Your DD has reached an age where simply telling her she cannot do something isn't really going to work any more. She has to make her own decisions and she has to make her own mistakes. From her point of view, there was no point in her sitting home alone while you were all out. If you were not comfortable having the boyfriend over then you could have suggested she went to his and made her own way home because neither of you were available.

I think you need to try to avoid "no" if possible. If something she wants is unacceptable to you, try to offer up a middle ground that works for you both. As I said before, the relationship has to move away from parent and child.

The walking away and not engaging that other posters have said many times is the only way to deal with her verbal outbursts. Maintain that you won't discuss it with her until she is speaking calmly and treating you with respect. But that works both ways, and you need to treat her with respect back. You could hold out and not show her respect until she shows you it, but that will just go round and round in circles. You are the adult and so you need to be the bigger person.

Ultimately, you need to move your mindset from where you are now, stuck in a pattern of blaming her and expecting to still have a large say over her and develop a mindset that is more in perspective and is more appropriate for her age.

I am in a situation where if DD is told she can't do something she ramps up the confrontation and becomes verbally vitriolic, won't leave you alone, faces up to you and won't let you walk away from situation. So my choice is back down and let her do whatever she wants even if we have said no. Or finding a way of teaching her that she can't always get what she wants or intimidate and manipulate to get her own way

But those are not your only two options.

This is not an either/or situation - there are many, many other possible outcomes. Both of your options have the same outcome which is that your DD moderates her behaviour - either because you give in, or because you teach her to behave differently.

Why? You have said in a previous post that you want your DD to be more "likable". So is that why you want her to change? So that it is easier for you to "like" her? You have said that your DH's MH is affected by her behaviour and that your DS struggles to cope with her shouting. Is that why you want her to change? So other members of the family aren't affected?

If you had a crying baby, whose cries triggered negative reaction in your DP and DS, would you attempt to prevent your baby from crying? Would you seek advice on the internet to stop your baby from ever crying? Or would you accept that it is a stage in your babies development which you, as a parent, can learn skills to cope with and manage? If a baby crying is a PTSD trigger, then the person with PTSD can remove themselves from the situation. Similarly, your DH could have left the house when your DD was behaving inappropriately, rather than continue to engage with her and eventually break down himself.

Several people have referred to the advice to judge your DD's actions, not her words. Ignore the vitriol. Avoid the confrontation. Don't give in, but don't try and "correct" her behaviour, either.

Disenage when she behaves in a way that is unacceptable and engage when she displays behaviour you approve of - even if the words she says are things you would prefer not to hear.

If she calmly tells you that she feels unloved and explains that you ltting her stay out all night would make her feel better, don't shut her down by saying "no, you're not going" and refuse to discuss it. Reward her positive behaviour (her calm attitude) by engaging with her. Discuss it, talk about why. Share your POV and listen to hers. Don't dismiss it. Even if the outcome isn't ultimately what she origionally asked for, by discussing and finding out what it is about what she wants that is most important, a compromise can be reached.

That's the way to teach her which aspects of her behaviour effective. Don't let the negative behaviour get to you. If she knows which buttons to press, and you keep reacting, she'll keep pressing them. That's as much a part of her being a teen as crying is to a baby.