Think DD has just destroyed relationship with DH her dad. Final straw.

[Facefacts]

After a long rocky period with DD 17, I thought things were getting better. Again, tonight, DD determined to get her own way. Wanted boyfriend to come over we said no as I had to be away all day and overnight, husband had to leave later as working away. So after I left mid afternoon she has massive argument with poor DH who is already having counselling (partly from previous rocky period as well as other things). She is so unsympathetic and uncaring and verbally very attacking. DH in pieces, DD just continued attack. And flounced off to boyfriends saying would be back for 11. Just arriving back now. Refused lift back and DH couldn't face scene if just went to fetch her. He now has two hour drive and has to be up early. He's broken and I'm fuming with her. She has a brilliant social life. Saw boyfriend 2 or 3 times in week. Nightclub Friday and friend stayed over Saturday. Don't know how this is going to go but we have been on edge of throwing her out before for stunts like this. Is this what we have to do to save DH from total breakdown. When she decides she is doing something there is no compromise, no care of the impact on others. It seems the more understanding and caring we are the more she takes. Someone please give me a plan to change this before she throws away a lovely home and family.

It is small potatoes. Door slamming is antisocial but it's hardly an act of violence that should reduce everyone in the house to quivering wrecks. I'd be laughing if the situation didn't involve a very young person being systematically damaged for life.

So if the teenager won't go for help, or change in any way, there are only two choices. First, carry on as you are or second, change the way you (as parents) react.

I think the op could certainly do the second one in this case. And her dh definitely could.

TBH, and as someone with a diagnosed child, you always, always change how you behave. Because not one person in this world doesn't have their own crap, and bring it to the parenting table, and if things aren't working well, the person with the alleged maturity and experience is the one who needs to change the patterns, and reframe the dynamic. All an autism diagnosis did was enable me to understand what my son needed, in terms of how we worked his lifestyle and routine. How I reacted to his stress and his flashpoints was still down to me.

I think this is a fundamental misunderstanding when people think of a diagnosis. It doesn't let parents off the hook - in fact it makes the wiggle room for parental inadequacy a great deal less. You're the parent, you chose to have them, you have to manage the dynamic.

OP, forgive me, but there does seem to be a lack of understanding that while you give in a lot to your child, you also hand over control of your own emotional states to her. That's a heavy burden for anyone, let alone a teenager. And I think all of you could do with some support on shifting that dynamic, as soon as possible. Please, go and talk to your GP.

Maryz re I think the reason people are getting stroppy is that the op doesn't actually seem to be taking anything on board.

This may be the case and I am guessing the OP is feeling quite bruised from the problems at home and now a further 'haranguing' I would call it by some mumsnetters is probably making her feel pretty shit, at least it would make me feel so.

It is so easy to blame the parent, which is exactly what some posters are doing. As if children are programable toys and if they malfunction then they must have been programmed wrongly! When in fact we are all highly complex.

Yes, listening and putting in some changes may well hope, I believe and hope the OP will. But some posters are seeming to take glee in kicking someone when they are down, which seems to have little benefit to me!

The fact the OP may feel a touch defensive now does not mean she will not read and re-read the thread, find advice that is helpful and pursue it, she may even take on board some of the comments asking her to explore her own or her dh's behaviour.

What I was objecting to was the perfectly vile comments which seemed to doubt just about everything said by the OP and to assume her dd was walking on egg shells and having a very difficult time.

Obviously some posters have had very, very bad times at home with family and that is truly appalling but it does not mean one can read a few brief posts and 'diagnose' that this situation must be exactly like their family situation in this case.

Sheba re It is small potatoes - the Op has mentioned her daughter attempting to jump out of a moving car. You do not know all that has gone on, and neither do I, but I certainly don't think attempting to jump out of a moving car is small potatoes.

Italian, the OP wouldn't have pursued any decent advice on this thread no matter who it came from or how it was presented. All she has done is demonise her daughter, blame her for everything and taken offence when people suggest she has the burden of responsibility in the situation, on account of being the parent and the grown up. Some of us have been that teenager.

Incidentally, nobody tries to jump out of a moving car unless they are absolutely desperate to escape and something horrendous is happening in there. If that story is true, the OP is choosing to omit some pretty serious details. And the concern should be why the fuck a kid is risking her life to escape her parents, not how terrible it is for the parents themselves and how it's all about them and their exclusive suffering, as usual.

Sheba there you go again, you know all the answers about this family! Can't you see how off putting that would be for someone seeking help.

Sheba, it's really clear from your comments that you had a horrendous time in your childhood and adolescence, and I honestly do hear that, and appreciate that it must have been hell, and you are concerned about another young person suffering as you did.

But the OP is not your mother. This young woman is not you. You can't know what is happening in that family, any more than anyone else on this thread, and I can say for certain that if you want her to hear advice, and suggestions, and seek the help they all need, attacking her and all she feels and believes is not going to do anything but prevent her being able to hear you. We all operate that way - none of us can cope with being sharply punched where we are at our most appallingly vulnerable.

Parents are humans and all different. Children are all different. This family needs help, but none of us - none of us - can know why, or how. There needs to be real world, real life input to achieve that for them all.

Sheba you are making assumptions again. The getting out of the moving car was when I was trying to take her home and she wanted to go to a nightclub at 11 at night and I had said she couldn't. When she was 15.

The climbing out of the window was when I said she couldn't stay at her friends until I talked to the parent to check it was alright so I need their phone number as I didn't know her. I said she couldn't go out until I had the number do she climbed out of the window

Sleep has said it much better than me!

Sheba no one is saying that abusive relationships that you or others on here have suffered were OK, we are just saying that we do not know all the facts and the most important thing is to help the family, the whole family.

Facefacts that must have been truly awful. So sorry. Hope you are finding some things helpful and finding a way forward.

I am basing it purely on what the OP has said, here and in other threads. And sometimes on what she hasn't said. You're quite right we don't know the full story....

Her kid tried to throw herself out of a moving car, and OP doesn't see fit to tell us what was happening that led to that? That's a pretty gaping plot hole.

Her kid has caused PTSD, a condition more commonly associated with seeing your buddies blown up in war zones or being raped - but she won't tell us what the daughter did that caused it?

You have to look at other threads by the OP to know a number of important factors that she has not seen fit to mention here; that she also has a son with ASD, that the father has left the family home before (but the symptoms remained so he returned - guess it's not as simple as cutting off the daughter after all), that he has refused to see a professional about his condition but still threatened to abandon his family if they don't deal with it for him, etc etc etc.

OP has said not one decent thing about her daughter, except admitting at one point that actually things are fine most of the time, throughout the whole of the thread. Even when she has a talk with her, all we hear is more criticism because the daughter asked for something and apparently 'wanted attention'. From a heart to heart with her mother. Wasn't attention supposed to be the point? Why does OP resent giving it?

I think it was blythe who made the excellent post about the OP really needing different perspectives (blythe has consistently made brilliant posts here) because, while it can be therapeutic to have people share your experiences, you also need to talk to people who can offer the other perspective, the new normal you're supposedly seeking and who, yes, might have some insight into why your daughter does what she does (this is why I, and some other posters, have shared our experiences, not to make the thread all about us. Please don't make it about me. It isn't). OP has embraced the sympathy and complained about the constructive alternatives, even when given by people who are far more intelligent, articulate and kind than I am.

When you can't even talk to your own mother about how unhappy you are without being accused of emotional manipulation and attention seeking, you are one lonely, unsupported young person.

Facefacts, I apologise for the cross post - I see now you have given an explanation of why your daughter tried to get out of a moving car. It sounds like a common and minor teenage incident from a long time ago. As the parent, you are not supposed to hold that against her for two years.

Sheba it is bad form to bring other threads onto this one. I have not read any other threads by the OP (knowingly) and am only responding to this one thread. It may be that many things on other threads are relevant and it may be having read them you cannot forget them, or stop yourself from commenting on them here!

But ultimately how much the OP chooses to reveal on this thread is her own business.

If you want to share what the OP's daughter may be feeling that would be very helpful, I am sure, but if I were the OP I would not want a kicking every time you shared.... example When you can't even talk to your own mother about how unhappy you are without being accused of emotional manipulation and attention seeking, you are one lonely, unsupported young person. How do you know this is the case? The op has spoken about heart to hearts. You are making big assumptions based on your own thoughts. You could phrase even these assumptions differently, if you chose to, and if you really care about the OP's DD you may find if you re-phrased you would be better heard.

He is in a poor state because of something else that happened that she knows about, but is quite happy to lay in to him anyway see he is upset and not care.

I read this, perhaps wrongly, as something very traumatic happened to OP's husband, which explains her protectiveness towards him, and the stress at home is exacerbating that. Not that the child is regarded as the instigator.

I agree that you can't reasonably blame an adolescent for PTSD unless the level of violence and abuse is criminal in level/nature. But you can't blame the mentally ill person if they have suffered from events that created a vulnerability, and a very difficult adolescence has made that worse.

OP, I don't know what the triggering event was, and it's certainly not necessary for you to tell us, but it was perhaps deeply frightening and traumatic for your daughter, too. Vulnerability in parents is for children. If her father became very fragile, then she may be reacting to those events as well, and just as much in need of help as he is? Is that possible?

I do want to say, as gently as I can, OP, that however scary and stressful her actions have been, she is placing herself at risk, and not you or your husband, and this has to be seen as both a cry for help... and not about him or his mental health, but her own. By blaming her for his state of mind, you are ratcheting up that tension and shutting down the chance of any helpful communication. She isn't responsible for your husband's mental health. She is his child, not vice versa. You can't expect a teenager to consider her father's PTSD when she very apparently has problems of her own. It isn't fair to put that on her.

Again, professional help. Really, truly.

Neither of the incidents you describe (attempting to climb out of a moving car that you were in control of, or climbing out the window to attend party) sound particularly traumatic OP so I'm guessing there's more that has led to your and your Dps mental health problems?

It sounds like a common and minor teenage incident from a long time ago.

I'm sorry but it sounds neither to me. Trying to get out of a moving car to get your own way is extreme.

Not read the other threads, but Sheba from your description they do reinforce the suspicion that there needs to be external intervention here. For everyone's sake.

I'm sorry but it sounds neither to me. Trying to get out of a moving car to get your own way is extreme.

That depends. If the teen has repeatedly asked the driver (one of her parents)to stop the car, and they refuse, (while they are also possibly reacting to a PTSD or MH trigger) then attempting to climb out of the moving car if you feel you are being held against your will is a likely response for anyone.

Excellent post sleep.

sheba I do mean what I say when I say "If you want to share what the OP's daughter may be feeling that would be very helpful."

But you do see what you did there, in the space of a few posts you said "Incidentally, nobody tries to jump out of a moving car unless they are absolutely desperate to escape and something horrendous is happening in there." ... to... "It sounds like a common and minor teenage incident from a long time ago."

So when you think the OP is at fault it is a something huge, when it turns out the OP is not to blame then it is a minor teenage incident.

Re "As the parent, you are not supposed to hold that against her for two years." There seems to be a lot of 'stuff' that needs to be worked through, I am not sure parents can just forget stuff by some sort of time frame, any more than children can. Work needs to be done. You could help if you can share but I recognise this may be very hard to do. None of this is about you, you are right, and the bad things that happened to you and other posters are always totally unacceptable.

Sorry sleep keep cross posting with you!

Face, it's grim, but you've been positive about some if Maryz's advice.

I've got an easier teen but a DH who is severely mentally unwell and drives and is driven mad by DS. DS has also destroyed a door before now.

I think that apparently calm, rational sympathy, is right, ditto looking at the actions, most if them, not just the fight ones, helps to save your sanity.because as another in fact many posters have said, that's what you need to do.

You need to cherish yourself, have a long bath, a good cry, a cup of tea, and rise with that smile painted firmly to your lips. You need to find that distance. Do you remember when they were little saying " I love you but I don't like your behaviour"? That's what you need to do, albeit silently, and turn round to her often and say " I do love you, you know", apropos of nothing or something he has done. . I'm v lucky, DS makes me laugh even when I'm crossest with him. So I can always say " you do make me laugh, I do love you. " and once I asked him what he would do in these circs. Took him back and made him think.

he gets furious if his freedoms are impinged on, major rows ensue, he expects the world but will sometimes comply again furiously with what we have asked. If not furious, Early Christian Martyr. Hence looking at what he complies with, not the reverse. And he manipulates us too. But each of us says to the other " teens".

If she resorts to physical violence or threats of, against you, then of course the police, but otherwise it's a question of lion taming. Never turn your back, reward and remember, you see nearly at the end of it.

Good luck.

Thank you sleeponeday

On a positive note, my experience means I tend to side with teenagers - no matter how 'awful' they may seem - as I see myself in them.

"attempting to climb out of the moving car if you feel you are being held against your will is a likely response for anyone."

No, it is not. Nobody in their right mind would take the risk of being shredded to bloody bits if they are not being kidnapped or otherwise fear for their life once the car reaches its destination.

Under any other circumstance, regardless of how badly you want out, you would wait for the car to stop and then get out and do whatever it is you want to do without risking death.

cote I take it you've never done it then?

I have. Twice.

Once, in similar circumstances to the OPs DD, when my parents were removing me from a situation they disapproved of, and secondly, when I was trying to flee an abusive Ex.

I was scared, yes, but I did not fear for my life, but equally, I cared very little for my own welfare or safety at that point. The objective - getting away from the person I feared - was the only thing on my mind. Was I in my right mind? Probably not. But as the OP is expecting her DD to conduct herself in a way that implies sound mental health, we have to assume that the DDs "right mind" is not in question.

And the fact that I can remember both incidents - and have discussed them with counsellors over the years - suggests to me that the OP is minimising the impact of that incident on her DD, while at the same time, accepting the impact it has had on herself and her DH.