Think DD has just destroyed relationship with DH her dad. Final straw.

[Facefacts]

After a long rocky period with DD 17, I thought things were getting better. Again, tonight, DD determined to get her own way. Wanted boyfriend to come over we said no as I had to be away all day and overnight, husband had to leave later as working away. So after I left mid afternoon she has massive argument with poor DH who is already having counselling (partly from previous rocky period as well as other things). She is so unsympathetic and uncaring and verbally very attacking. DH in pieces, DD just continued attack. And flounced off to boyfriends saying would be back for 11. Just arriving back now. Refused lift back and DH couldn't face scene if just went to fetch her. He now has two hour drive and has to be up early. He's broken and I'm fuming with her. She has a brilliant social life. Saw boyfriend 2 or 3 times in week. Nightclub Friday and friend stayed over Saturday. Don't know how this is going to go but we have been on edge of throwing her out before for stunts like this. Is this what we have to do to save DH from total breakdown. When she decides she is doing something there is no compromise, no care of the impact on others. It seems the more understanding and caring we are the more she takes. Someone please give me a plan to change this before she throws away a lovely home and family.

In response to a couple of posters who seem again to have made things up. I was driving not DH and was not having any kind of MH episode. Daughter says I want to go into town take me into town, I say no you can't go to club it is late you are going home. She says stop the car I am going out I say you are going home. So she opens door and starts to get out. I have to stop. She gets out and disappears. I wasn't kidnapping her. I wasn't mentally ill. And I haven't held it against her for two years. Just mention it as an indication of just what I was dealing with. It has ramped down quite a lot since then. It wasn't the cause of the PTSD. But lots of these incidents over time wear you down.
Sheba, Cote and others who are just making stuff up based on your own childhoods will you please just stop.

Daughter says I want to go into town take me into town, I say no you can't go to club it is late you are going home. She says stop the car I am going out I say you are going home. So she opens door and starts to get out. I have to stop. She gets out and disappears. I wasn't kidnapping her. I wasn't mentally ill. And I haven't held it against her for two years. Just mention it as an indication of just what I was dealing with

But what were you dealing with? A teen who was unable to safety judge the risk to herself of her actions, so you kept her safe. No one was hurt, there was no long term consequence and what you've describe happens nearly every day up and down the country.

This is not a big deal! Yes, her fumbling with the door latch, and even opening the door while the car was moving would undoubtedly have dumped loads of adrenalin into your system, caused you a scare - but you kept her safe. You did what every parent would do, protect the physical welfare if your DD.
So she disappeared. She obviously came back!

Pretty. Are you for real?

There is a pattern here of my DD doing pretty much whatever it takes to get her own way. Not all the time but it is really difficult to impose the usual boundaries, consequences sort of thing when someone goes to these lengths. It ends up as a battleground. You feel held to ransom. Let me do whatever I want or I'll let off this grenade and keep doing it until I get my own way.

Pretty she disappeared at 11.00 at night, at age 15 ... and we do not know where this was, a country lane, a busy town. I would be pretty freaked out by that. I think any parent would be. I think if that happened a lot over a period of time it would very much wear me down.

I'm late to the party. Sorry Face for what you are going through.
the teen years are horrible (and 17 is still a teen), things will improve but don't expect much until 25.
so now that you know that this might be a long game. I suggest you and DH refresh and refuel and rethink some strategies. personally I would seek the help of a professional (if your DH is seeing a MH specialist could you and him speak to that person about the situation)
I have not rtwt but have been through some rough years with teens.

Sleep and Italian. Thank you for your comments and for being able to distinguish what I've actually said from what others have made up to match their assumptions about me.
I'm already on my knees with dealing with this over a long period of time and don't need criticism for things that other people have just invented. It makes it really hard to sift out the helpful advice that is in here.
Sheba. I do talk to my DD and help her sort her problems. Probably not enough but as often as she will let me. But when she uses me talking to her as an opportunity to forcefully persuade me to buy things for her and I say no and she will go on and on and tell me I don't care about her if I don't let her have it and stand in front of me to stop me leaving the room when I have had enough then I don't think that is on. If you're happy someone doing that to you that is up to you but I don't think it is acceptable. So again, Sheba, stop inventing your own narrative please.

Italian. It's silly to blame everything on the OPs DD. It's silly to pathologise her behaviour by attributing it to neurological issues when the OP and her husband have been so traumatised by what has gone on with the DD and her brother that one of the has PTSD and the other has memory blackouts. And yet the DD is supposed to have suffered no effects whatsoever? I mean that just doesn't make sense. It's bullshit to say it's bad form to look at earlier threads. The OP has asked for advice. Not for a pat on the head and a cup of tea and sympathy.

I advised - and still do - that she seeks urgent family therapy. This is something the whole family needs to work on, not just the DD.

Finally (and yes this is personal experience but it may help the OP), my sister was wild as a teenager. Lost her virginity at 13. Was out smoking and drinking and taking drugs. Climbed out of windows and moving vehicles. Kicked in doors.

She's now a company director. She is entirely NT.

A few posters seem to doubt the (fully diagnosed and being treated) PTSD. I never said DD was cause but did contribute and didn't help. but we haven't told her and won't. Nor would we tell DS. So for anyone who thinks full blown ASD meltdowns over months into years can't cause PTSD, then lucky you because you haven't had to cope with it.

Facefacts Without in any way wanting to diagnose your dd, which I cannot, of course, do, I wonder if this might be of any use to read...

www.empoweringparents.com/parenting-odd-children-and-teens-how-to-make-consequences-work.php

One thing that finding out about conditions has done (for me as a parent) is to hep me feel a bit more in control and to understand things more with the aim of helping my child. My child does not have ODD or PDA or ADHD or ASD. But she has ASD traits when it comes to friendships. And that knowledge helped us to choose the best high school (we hope) for her based on friends etc and other factors.

Personally, I'm not doubting it Face. Just a bit mystified why you don't think it would have had any impact on your DD when clearly it's has such a devastating effect on you and your DH.

I think it might help if your children were aware that your husband was having counselling.

Lynda. I may have missed it but I do I didn't read Italian's comments as blaming my daughter or trying to pathologise her. Glad your sister made it out the other side though. My DD probably will too (though I might not)

LyndaNotLinda I have not once said that I blame everything on the OPs DD. So I am not sure why you direct that at me. I have said it must be very hard to have a child try and jump out of a window or out of a moving car and run off into the night aged 15 at 11.00 pm.

1. Re It's silly to pathologise her behaviour by attributing it to neurological issues when the OP and her husband have been so traumatised by what has gone on with the DD and her brother that one of the has PTSD and the other has memory blackouts. Well, I am not trying to pathologise anyone, I am wondering if there are additional reasons for any behaviour, and either there is or there is not, but I am not a specialist and I would not be able to diagnose anyone over the internet even if I were - nor do I wish to! There have been repeated 'questionings' of the 'PTSD' and this is highly offensive. If you do not believe the OP, just stop reading.

2. And yet the DD is supposed to have suffered no effects whatsoever? When did I say the DD experienced no effects? i am sure she did, however, I think in some way the DDis more in control of the examples given, she was a passengers who ran off into the night and she attempted to jump from a window. So she may have slightly more chance of controlling what is going on! Her mother clearly did not.

3. It's bullshit to say it's bad form to look at earlier threads. This was not my 'rule' at all, I thought it was mumsnet's guidelines, but I have looked and I cannot see it there. Other posters have said it on other threads and I assumed it was the case. If anyone can confirm if this is the case or not, please do. If not, I apologise, LyndaNotLinda, because I thought that it was the case that it was a mumsnet guidelines not to do this. If I am wrong, as I say, I apologise.

4. Re The OP has asked for advice. Not for a pat on the head and a cup of tea and sympathy. I can assure you from reading this she has received very little sympathy and she has had some very mean comments directed at her and people blatantly not believing her. Yes, she has received advice, I do hope it will be helpful. But some posters have repeatedly misrepresented what she has said. That is most unhelpful and annoying, I am annoyed and I am just a reader!

5. I advised - and still do - that she seeks urgent family therapy. This is something the whole family needs to work on, not just the DD.

And I agree with you and have said this too.

I am very glad for your sister. Maybe you could share some advice on how your sister turned things around

If it drifts into her pressuring me into trying to get stuff off me though and I can't talk her round from it and back onto feelings then what would you do? Just sit there and continually say no you can't have .. Because... I do care about you but you can't have... I do want you to have a nice life but that doesn't mean I have to agree to... Honestly. Would you sit there for hours doing that?

Use the phrase 'I'm sorry you feel that way, DD.' And repeat. You don't have to go at it like a bull at a gate. If you can't talk her around why try for so many years? This is an example of you needing to change your tack. It is also an example of you seeing the glass half empty, being caught up in a pattern involving unhealthy communication habits, being enmeshed, and catastrophising,

All of you are locked into an unhealthy pattern of communication where everyone wants to 'win'. The only reason everyone wants to 'win', and tries to 'win' every encounter, is that everyone believes they can 'win'. This investment in 'winning' is also why you keep on taking the same approach to DD and why you are averse to suggestions that you need to change your approach, reframe events, examine your lack of boundaries, as opposed to your welcome of suggestions that DD has something going awry that needs a diagnosis. As a PP has said, a diagnosis will only mean you even more urgently accepting the need to change how you deal with her and with DH. But I suspect a diagnosis would affirm your belief that you are 'right' and were right all along, and the problem was DD.

Winning in relationships is not possible. None of you is behaving in a mature way. You need to sit down and examine what 'winning' means to you. You need to ask yourself if DH has an agenda that involves him 'winning' too and you need to be brutally honest with yourself about this. This investment in winning is an offshoot of catastrophising -- none of you can see a middle road between win and lose, triumph and harmony vs. annihilation and destruction of the family by a rampaging DD, who destroys relationships, throws away her chance at a happy family life, etc.

Blytheandsebastian and Mulranna used the term 'catastrophising' upthread. DH does it. You do it too. The catastrophising is a huge issue and you need to address it. You can prevent yourself from falling into the catastrophising trap by building healthy boundaries between you and DH where you accept that he is the only one responsible for maintaining his own equilibrium. When you do that you will immediately remove from the equation your concern that DD exacerbates DH's condition. You will find the unhealthy triangular relationship that currently exists will be disrupted once you have healthy boundaries in place between you and DH. The key to solving this lies in your control -- it will be to establish healthy boundaries between you and DH.

DD has learned to catastrophise and to seek to win at all costs most likely from you, but all teens catastrophise to some extent. Everything is of the ultimate importance and they tend to be self absorbed and inconsiderate, even the best of them. They learn not to do it partly by just going through the process of neurological development but partly by the example of their parents, so you must stop it. But seeking to win at all costs is something she has picked up in a home where she understands the only alternatives are win or lose.

Almost every post of yours here reveals your mental habit of catastrophising.

This as well as enmeshment is what you need to examine when you go to family therapy, which you need to do even if DD won't go.

I think you have to look after your own sanity. Realise you can't really stop her, sad and annoying that may be. You can stand in front of the door for example but she may push past you, it causes friction to say the least.

Look after yourself and perfect the oh dear comments. Frustrating I know, we want to keep our kids safe, do the right thing, but when it gets into a total battle it's more damaging to keep fighting I think.

Concentrate on building up a nice relationship out side of the fighting.

One of mine is difficult too. She has been hospitalised before now because of her stubbornness. You possibly can't make your daughter do anything like I can't make my daughter take her much needed medication. . I think maryz talks a lot of sense.

Pretty. Are you for real?

I am very much for real.

Real enough to have dealt with a 16 year old teen being brought to my door by the police having been caught shoplifting.

Real enough to have called paramedics for the 15 year old teen who turned up at my house so drunk they stopped breathing.

And real enough to have sat in a waiting room with a weeping teen who was pregnant.

I've known, lived with and supported teens that put your DDs behaviour in perspective.

Parenting is HARD. That's the deal. You can't demand that your DCs only display the behaviour you are comfortable with.

You have consistently ignored everyone's questions or comments about who you have spoken to for support - who else in your DDs life knows about her behaviour and your struggle. Did you contact her school after she ran off when she was15? Do her college tutors know that her father has a serious mental health problem? Or, are you keeping all this behind closed doors? Because failing to ask for help with parenting when you can't cope is failing your DCs, imo.

So for anyone who thinks full blown ASD meltdowns over months into years can't cause PTSD, then lucky you because you haven't had to cope with it

Did I miss the post where you talk about her ASD diagnosis?

ASD dIagnosis is my DS, meltdowns have pretty much stopped for him for last two years or so. I was trying to keep this thread about my DD so didn't say initially but people have been drawing such wild conclusions of their own I felt I had to explain a bit.

walter it is the OPs DS who has ASD - and whose behaviour she now appears to be blaming for her DHs PTSD.

Pretty I am sorry for the problems you have had to deal with but they are not the same as the problems I am dealing with with my daughter. Your last response is pretty unreal. It shows a real lack of understanding of my situation so perhaps you should find another thread to read.

OP, there is a world of difference between something being a contributing factor
TO an event and being partly responsible FOR the event. No one was saying your dh couldn't have mental health problems that were exacerbated by family tensions. But that doesn't make it the 'fault' of your child. Are you not saying that your DD has asd and these huge meltdowns are a medical issue? Or are you now saying your DD was the one who caused the problems?

Are you now saying

Sorry, I'd missed your last post op. So it is the DS who is now 'causing' the PTSD, not your dd? Out of interest, do you blame him for dh's problems in the same way or do you both forgive him because of the diagnosis?

face You cannot dismiss me from your thread because you don't like what I've posted.
Its not possible to manage and control your environment to avoid hearing or experiencing things that cause you discomfort.

You chose to post here and the consequence of that is that people may post things you disagree with.

Just as when you make choices as a parent, the consequence may be that your DCs say, or do, things you struggle to understand and lead you to feel uncomfortable.

You can't force your DCs to change, but you can change your reaction to their behaviour.

And why have you apologised for my life experiences? Im not sorry - I hope I made a difference to the teens I supported.

Two key questions that remain unanswered.

What exactly is DD doing that is violent? Is it slamming doors, throwing objects at you, hitting you, what?

What help have you tried to access through school and GP?

If you started this thread looking for ways to help her, why the heck aren't you agreeing to seek professional help from a family therapist, who would be in a much better position to make a positive impact in the life of your child than strangers on the internet?