Think DD has just destroyed relationship with DH her dad. Final straw.

[Facefacts]

After a long rocky period with DD 17, I thought things were getting better. Again, tonight, DD determined to get her own way. Wanted boyfriend to come over we said no as I had to be away all day and overnight, husband had to leave later as working away. So after I left mid afternoon she has massive argument with poor DH who is already having counselling (partly from previous rocky period as well as other things). She is so unsympathetic and uncaring and verbally very attacking. DH in pieces, DD just continued attack. And flounced off to boyfriends saying would be back for 11. Just arriving back now. Refused lift back and DH couldn't face scene if just went to fetch her. He now has two hour drive and has to be up early. He's broken and I'm fuming with her. She has a brilliant social life. Saw boyfriend 2 or 3 times in week. Nightclub Friday and friend stayed over Saturday. Don't know how this is going to go but we have been on edge of throwing her out before for stunts like this. Is this what we have to do to save DH from total breakdown. When she decides she is doing something there is no compromise, no care of the impact on others. It seems the more understanding and caring we are the more she takes. Someone please give me a plan to change this before she throws away a lovely home and family.

Yes, and she doesn't actually have boundaries as such. She just has a whole load of 'do whatever your father and I say, lest you CAUSE HIS MENTAL BREAKDOWN LIKE YOU'VE ALREADY GIVEN HIM PTSD AND FORCED ME TO REPRESS SO MANY MEMORIES OF WHAT A TERRIBLE CHILD YOU ARE' weighing her down. Which is not the same thing at all.

" They are probably not made to feel guilty about behaving in a totally normal teenager way."

OP's DD's behaviour does not sound like that of a totally normal teenager to me.

"so her father could leave knowing she is safe and sound at home - That is an absolutely ridiculous and unnecessary thing to ask of a 17 year old though"

I don't know if they do trust her a lot. It sounds more like just say "yes" to most things she wants to do because otherwise she gets aggressive and unmanageable.

"I would be much more worried about my DD when she was out clubbing than I would be on a Sunday night round her boyfriends"

Assuming you know her boyfriend. OP said that she doesn't know this 'boyfriend' who has been around for all of one week.

"a 17 year old cannot be held responsible for a dynamic of this magnitude. She did not create it. She is not in control of it."

I agree that DD cannot be responsible for the dysfunctional relationship around the MH issues of her father, but the problem of her outrageous behaviour needs to be resolved if she will continue to live in the same house with her parents.

Sheba... please don't be dramatic, I'm pretty convinced that she won't become a prostitute if her parents stay firm, she will do some nights of sofa surfing and then will come back a bit more humble once she has run out of money.

Honestly, I find it fascinating that so many people think that this level of brattiness is just a phase. In my old line of work I dealt with lots of students who were never taught how to take responsibility for themselves by their parents and apparently suddenly "grew up" after a year in university. I can tell you that the way they "grew up" in university was mostly due to running out of money for nights outs and even food, being screamed at or even requested to move out for leaving a huge amount of mess for their flatmates to clean, and they learned that the only way to keep their newly acquired family (their friends) was to behave with consideration towards them.

If this girl is giving her parents such hell, it is because she knows her family will put up with it.

Her behaviour is not outrageous. She has some strops and occasionally flounces off to her boyfriend's house. That's pretty much it from what we can tell. Her father has had strops and flounced off himself, tried to leave his family on occasion. Where do you think the daughter picked that behaviour up from?

We have heard from OP that the daughter has in fact committed acts so heinous her parents have mentally blocked them and her father has flashbacks and nightmares about them, but until we know what they are, I'm going to remain sceptical about them,

"What on earth have clubs in the UK got to do with it?"

You really don't get why I ask if it's legal for a 17-year-old to go into clubs in the UK?

You had a hysterical laughing fit when I said that 17-year-olds I know don't go clubbing on Friday nights. Now I'm asking if it's even legal for them to do so. Well, is it?

It is not legal for under-18s to go to bars and clubs where we live. No 17-year-old would therefore be going to one and no parent I know would be happily sending their children off to clubs on Friday nights.

Some people here are portraying OP are overly strict, not letting her DD live her life, etc but I see quite the opposite.

TheTiger, please look back at previous comments. It was Cote who first said that if her daughter misbehaved, she could just get out and work as a prostitute to feed herself. I didn't think up that hypothetical situation. But I do confess I'm rather appalled by a parent who thinks that's preferable to having your daughter be stroppy at home.

cote are you wiling to consider the possibility that the DCs behaviour is a consequence of her own, as yet undiagnosed MH problems - likely caused by the same traumas that have affected her parents so significantly?

What is the likelyhood that the DD will have survived those incidents unscathed, and yet her parents have been so badly damaged?

"Her behaviour is not outrageous. "

Are you serious? Screaming at her parents while following them around the house, not letting them leave a room, breaking a door... totally normal in your family then?

Well Cote, in the UK it's not legal for a 17 year old to be a sex worker and it's not legal for anyone to streetwalk (or solicit, as it's more officially known), but apparently that's still all right by you if the teenager is a pain in the arse at home.

"Are you wiling to consider the possibility that the DCs behaviour is a consequence of her own, as yet undiagnosed MH problems - likely caused by the same traumas that have affected her parents so significantly?"

Sure, I would be willing to consider all that but we don't know anything about any of that.

Oh get over yourself Sheba. You are acting like I pimped OP's DD to a life of prostitution.

you know, there are a LOT of people who have some horrible family problems, some children put up with a lot of rubbish, but considering she is almost an adult... I would say that although the parents may be guilty of not setting boundaries to her DD, there is no excuse for her to be acting like this towards her family. If she was acting like that with her friends, she would have none.

The "outrageous" (is it?) behaviour is not organic.

You seem to be saying that the DD is acting like this despite the shit that is going on in her family. That it is happening totally separate to everything else.

Baffling. Utterly baffling.

I have to say, entirely honestly, there is nothing and I mean literally nothing that could make me kick my kids out of their home. Or even threaten it.

If you understand that it is illegal for a 17yo to be in a club, you should be able to see why I say that teenagers would normally NOT be going out clubbing on a Friday night without breaking into a juvenile giggling fit.

Screaming at her parents while following them around the house, not letting them leave a room, breaking a door... totally normal in your family then?

A lot more common than you seem to think - if you hang out on the teen boards for a while, you'll see that many teenagers have all out screaming tantrums that put toddlers to shame (and I remember my own only too well ).

"It was Cote who first said that if her daughter misbehaved, she could just get out and work as a prostitute to feed herself. "

That is not what I said and your inability to understand the point of that post is getting old.

TheTiger, her friends are not her parents. They do not have the same responsibility towards her.

Cote, if you understand that streetwalking is illegal full stop, and prostitution is illegal for anyone under 18, you should be able to see why I am so horrified that you think this would be a more acceptable situation than a teenager having a tantrum at home.

The daughter knows full well that her mother blames her for her father's condition, and that her mother expects her to put her father first and live her life around him. That's enough to drive anyone crazy.

Are you and DH empathic to your DD? Are you compassionate towards her?

Also consider giving her starflower oil or oil of primrose for hormone balancing. Also general B vitamin daily.

What I would like to know is why is she is so unhappy at home? Is she having her emotional needs met? Does she feel treasured? Do you have hear to hearts? What things does she struggle with?

Also you say your other child has ASD. It's often genetic. Is there any chance your DH could also have ASD? Resulting in him struggling to deal with teen behaviour. Lastly there is the possibility your DD may have ASD but as a girl would present very differently. There's lots of info available on line.

Sure, I would be willing to consider all that but we don't know anything about any of that.

cote - but we do! We know that is the OP's DH's mental health problems that are motivating the OP to seek changes in her DD.
If the OP's DH's mental health is the motivating factor, then surely the DD's mental health is equally relevant.

Given the lack of response by the OP to my earlier post, I assume all of this is currently going on behind closed doors. It won't be long, I hope, before something gives and the DS's school, or DD's college become aware of the situation. As the Op's DS is vulnerable, it is likely that intervention will happen sooner rather than later.

I just hope the OP realises how much better it would be to actively involve others sooner rather than later. Failing to share something as significant as a parents PTSD diagnosis with the school of a DC with ASD is alarming, to say the least!

Pretty - Yes, teenagers do have screaming tantrums but not normally to the point of verbally abusing and intimidating their parents, not to mention breaking doors. OP's DD sounds scary.

And all that for what? Because after clubbing on Friday night and having a friend stay over Saturday night leaving only Sunday afternoon, she couldn't then have a brand new boyfriend her parents don't even know sleep over in the house with her.

I don't know how that sort of behaviour can look anywhere near normal to anyone here.

Sheba - I give up on you because you keep saying the same things despite being told numerous times to stop misrepresenting the point of that post. You clearly won't get it. Have a good evening.

Thank you to the posters who sent me some useful links earlier in this thread. I have made a note of them. I have asked the post to be removed as I have revealed more than I am comfortable with and it could be identifying. Because I haven't disclosed more some posters seem to making assumptions and making things up that are definitely not the case. But thank you to posters who have made suggestions.
The fact that I seem to being told that I need to clamp down as I'm being to lax. And being told I'm way too controlling shows what a minefield this is to get right.

Frankly, if I had someone ill in the family and the behaviour of DS was exacerbating the symptoms, I would be having words with DS rather than asking him if he has felt loved enough.

As I said, Cote, people are welcome to look back at your comments, which I recorded on page 11 (with references) and see which of us has interpreted them correctly.

Regarding the daughter, people will act as you treat them. If you treat them as though they are bad and responsible for other people's sickness, then don't be surprised if they start to play to that role. Why should they not? You've written them off already.

"We know that is the OP's DH's mental health problems that are motivating the OP to seek changes in her DD. "

Do we? That is partly what is bothering her, but it is also the fact that OP has to keep accommodating her DD in her every wish (buying her all she wants, financing her night life, having her friends over, giving her lifts to/from places etc) just so she will not fly off the handle and get aggressive.

OP mentions that she wishes her DD would consent to therapy so she has considered that MH issues may be part of the problem, but in any case, her DD's behaviour needs to be sorted out.