Think DD has just destroyed relationship with DH her dad. Final straw.

[Facefacts]

After a long rocky period with DD 17, I thought things were getting better. Again, tonight, DD determined to get her own way. Wanted boyfriend to come over we said no as I had to be away all day and overnight, husband had to leave later as working away. So after I left mid afternoon she has massive argument with poor DH who is already having counselling (partly from previous rocky period as well as other things). She is so unsympathetic and uncaring and verbally very attacking. DH in pieces, DD just continued attack. And flounced off to boyfriends saying would be back for 11. Just arriving back now. Refused lift back and DH couldn't face scene if just went to fetch her. He now has two hour drive and has to be up early. He's broken and I'm fuming with her. She has a brilliant social life. Saw boyfriend 2 or 3 times in week. Nightclub Friday and friend stayed over Saturday. Don't know how this is going to go but we have been on edge of throwing her out before for stunts like this. Is this what we have to do to save DH from total breakdown. When she decides she is doing something there is no compromise, no care of the impact on others. It seems the more understanding and caring we are the more she takes. Someone please give me a plan to change this before she throws away a lovely home and family.

To build on some of what SSargassoSea and Joseph say, OP - I can see that dd's behaviour seems selfish, and that makes you want to correct it (for her sake as well as others', etc).

But correction isn't working. I can easily see how you may not want to hear her side of the story because it seems like she's always got it her way, and she will probably say things about you and dh you don't agree with and that will make you angry and upset. But the fact remains that you are not hearing (or at least not showing us) her side of the story; it might help immensely to ask for it, and listen to it, and try to talk about it without reference to consideration or gratitude or other terms that are likely to sound 'correctional' and get her back up.

Would also be interested to know what the flashbacks and nightmares concerning dd are of. I can easily believe, btw, that children can traumatise their parents; kids are strong & can be very violent. Prolonged conflict can traumatise everyone involved. But being coy about what she's done to cause so much damage in everyone around her doesn't help us understand what you're going through.

x

What has your DD done in the past that's so bad that it has caused severe mental health issues to your DH and you to have repressed memories?

I think that's an important part of the story that we are missing.

However your refusal to answer it and an advanced search of your previous threads makes me think that you and your DH are control freaks who can't let go. Sorry to be harsh but you are not listening. She is a person in her own right, stop with the emotional blackmail and guilt tripping and hysterics and just take a huge step back.

This is a typical way for teenagers to behave when they are being controlled and suffocated by over bearing parents.

I know it's considered bad form to refer to other threads but you've posted previously about your DH. To me it sounds like he's using his fragile mental health as a stick to beat you all with.

I'm reminded of old Ada Doom in Cold Comfort Farm

He may well be mentally ill but he can't go around telling you all that it's your fault this is the case and that his symptoms would go away if you'd only be nicer to him. Talk about manipulative. In your DD's shoes I'd be pretty angry and rebellious in that situation too.

Why was it so important for her to be home that evening?

At what age will you allow her the freedom to decide her own evening?

Because if it's because DH would feel better, then that's not on. Maybe she would have had piece of mind if you were in that evening? Or is that different?

We didn't realise our DD was scared of staying in the house overnight. Would do anything to avoid it. Until we realised she had stayed up all night. She was 18.

People like blythe, Bip and Bitch are talking a whole lot of sense. Brilliant sense.

I'm starting to get a slightly oppressed feeling myself from what OP is telling us. She's just admitted that she does have a good relationship with her daughter most of the time. And yet up until now she's just been telling us what a holy terror the girl is, how she has been forced to repress memories because she's so awful, husband has flashbacks and whatnot...

I am really sorry, OP, I do not mean to trivialise anyone's mental illness, but you and your husband really do sound as if you have a tendency to escalate situations and create drama where it just isn't necessary. I can only imagine what it's like being a 17 year old on the cusp of trying to navigate the world her own way and find her own self...and every time my parents give me instruction it is not because 'it is dangerous' or 'it is not how considerate, mature adults behave' but 'Your father's fragile mental health! If you don't stay in an empty house all night your father will worry and then if he has a breakdown it's your fault! If you give us any teenage backchat your father will have a breakdown and it will be all your fault! If you don't do exactly as we say, you will ruin your relationship with your father and he will have a breakdown and it will be all your fault!"

Honestly, it makes me want to break some doors myself.

The PPs who explained how your husband's condition is his responsibility are completely correct. It is not his fault he's fragile, but it is his condition and he has to manage it - partly for himself, and partly so he can be as good a parent as possible. It's not your child's responsibility to look out for you and live her life around your vulnerabilities.

I know it's frustrating and difficult, especially if your daughter has things to say that are difficult to hear, but parenting teenagers is not about point scoring or face saving (shoutout to the lovely PPs who think it's better to have their daughters streetwalking than giving them any teenage lip at home). It's about protecting the teenager to the best of your ability, while promoting and respecting their independence. It's a difficult line to draw, of course it is, and nobody gets it right all the time. But it really does sound as if you've built a quite oppressive environment where everything your daughter does has to be geared around her father's mental state, her father doesn't have to do anything to try to manage it himself, and the threat of her being responsible for any breakdown or flashbacks or nightmares he has is always being used as a hold over her.

Nobody can live like that.

People like blythe, Bip and Bitch are talking a whole lot of sense. Brilliant sense.

I'm starting to get a slightly oppressed feeling myself from what OP is telling us. She's just admitted that she does have a good relationship with her daughter most of the time. And yet up until now she's just been telling us what a holy terror the girl is, how she has been forced to repress memories because she's so awful, husband has flashbacks and whatnot...

I am really sorry, OP, I do not mean to trivialise anyone's mental illness, but you and your husband really do sound as if you have a tendency to escalate situations and create drama where it just isn't necessary. I can only imagine what it's like being a 17 year old on the cusp of trying to navigate the world her own way and find her own self...and every time my parents give me instruction it is not because 'it is dangerous' or 'it is not how considerate, mature adults behave' but 'Your father's fragile mental health! If you don't stay in an empty house all night your father will worry and then if he has a breakdown it's your fault! If you give us any teenage backchat your father will have a breakdown and it will be all your fault! If you don't do exactly as we say, you will ruin your relationship with your father and he will have a breakdown and it will be all your fault!"

Honestly, it makes me want to break some doors myself.

The PPs who explained how your husband's condition is his responsibility are completely correct. It is not his fault he's fragile, but it is his condition and he has to manage it - partly for himself, and partly so he can be as good a parent as possible. It's not your child's responsibility to look out for you and live her life around your vulnerabilities.

I know it's frustrating and difficult, especially if your daughter has things to say that are difficult to hear, but parenting teenagers is not about point scoring or face saving (shoutout to the lovely PPs who think it's better to have their daughters streetwalking than giving them any teenage lip at home). It's about protecting the teenager to the best of your ability, while promoting and respecting their independence. It's a difficult line to draw, of course it is, and nobody gets it right all the time. But it really does sound as if you've built a quite oppressive environment where everything your daughter does has to be geared around her father's mental state, her father doesn't have to do anything to try to manage it himself, and the threat of her being responsible for any breakdown or flashbacks or nightmares he has is always being used as a hold over her.

Nobody can live like that.

Hmm. You can't make someone feel empathy for someone else I'm afraid!

Why was it so important that she stayed in the house that evening?

I agree to stop facilitating though.

I've read the full thread and must admit I am struggling to understand about what exactly your main concern is with your dd.

Are you worried about her physically harming herself or being harmed if she is out?

Are you worried about her physically harming you, your day or DH at home?

What language does she use when she verbally attacks you?

Is she allowed to use public transport on her own or is that why you are giving her lifts?

Are you worried about her failing school?

What behaviour would you consider 'nice and considerate' that she is lacking now?

Reading this with your other threads, I think you're in grave danger of making your daughter into the family scapegoat, holding her responsible for her parents' mental health. You said on your other thread that your husband is threatening to leave because he can't bear living with your children. That's not an acceptable thing for a father to say. You cannot possibly expect your children to pussyfoot around him in the way you've chosen to - it's no way to love.

I think you need family therapy urgently to get through this. In your OP you talk about 'a lovely home and family' but today you're saying that there has been such immense trauma caused by your children's behaviour that your husband is suffering PTSD and you're blocking out the horror.

That seems to me to be a long way from a lovely home and family I'm afraid.

no way to live

I have a form of PTSD and it's perfectly possible for others to tap into that without realising they do, or the sufferer fully recognizing it until after the fact.

Others don't cause the PTSD but they tap into the circumstances surrounding the actual event which triggers a partial reliving of the event. Perhaps that's what the OP means?

Yes it's my responsibility to manage it and I'm getting better at it but I'm not perfect and my family luckily are very supportive as I've explained my particular triggers/responses/management strategies.

It's not a case of blame, it's just the way it is. I'm doing my part in getting help, my family want to help and support and that makes it so much easier.

It's rarely a thread gets under my skin but I have spent the afternoon shuddering at the thought of suddenly being grounded, for no reason, in an empty house, at age 17. And having to explain all this to a new boyfriend without making it seem like my family were freaks.

I'm also afraid I'm beginning to get a hysterical desire to laugh every time I think of this thing that is so terrible it can't be written about - the one that DD is guilty of and will carry the shame of for the rest of her life. Was it just that she tried to escape from a moving vehicle? Because I can imagine considering that option if trapped in a car with you two. Anyway...not helpful, I know.

I just think you're both emotionally very immature and she's unlikely to get far in life until she's got out of your home. So yes, encourage her to make plans to leave the moment she can. It would do her the world of good. Not that you show any signs of caring.

op your latest posts are astounding, frankly.

Your DH suffers from PTSD flashbacks about a traumatic incidents caused by your DD, for which he is receiving therapy.
You have blanked out memories of these incidents that you attribute to your DD and have received counselling.
Yet, you have not mentioned the impact these incidents must have had on your DDs mental health.
Both her parents are severely traumatised by them yet you expect her to moderate her behaviour to accommodate that - rather than acknowledge that she too will be experiencing mental health consequences?

Whether the incidents in question were outbursts of uncontrolled rage, or reckless actions that led to unintended consequences (such as a house fire from a discarded cigarette, for instance) it is inevitable that if they were severe enough for your Dh and yourself to be so affected, that she (and her brother) will be more so. They will be feeling Fear, guilt, and a range of other emotions for which they are ill equipped to deal with. Is it any wonder that your DD is acting out? Both you and your DH have help to cope - but she has nothing other than parents who are placing higher expectations on her - required as a consequence of her previous conduct.

I assume (as it was so significant an event) that professionals of some description were involved -be they police, soc Serv or medical. Please make contact with them and ask for more help.

Your DS school can provide him with support via a CAF or Early Help
assessment. You DD can be offered support through college.

Stop minimising and hiding your problems.
Your family is in crisis. You have previously posted that your DH has, quite recently, talked about suicide.
Get help, before a tragedy strikes.

It's rarely a thread gets under my skin

Yep, I'm the same, but this one...I even told my DH about it, it has left such an impact on me.

I try not to read other threads by OPs. But I am feeling like I need to, while also feeling like I don't want to.

Just realised that your thread title is wrong. Instead of 'relationship with her father' it should read 'my marriage', because that's really what this is about, isn't it. You think she's going to screw up the rest of your life because she spent her teenage years not putting her father first.

Poor kid.

Joysmum, I'm sorry to hear about your condition and I hope you can continue to manage it well.

What's striking me as different about you is that a) you're taking some responsibility for managing your condition, including developing coping strategies and b) you've explained to those around you what specific things can set it off.

But from this thread, and others from the OP which I've just been looking at, this husband sounds very different. He doesn't seem, from what I can gauge, to take any responsibility for managing his condition. He appears to suffer trauma, flashbacks, twitches, loss of speech and so on, but thinks it could all be cured if only his children were perfectly behaved and his wife kept a lovely home. (Wouldn't we all!) Yet OP has also said in another thread that when he is away from home, he still gets the symptoms due to loneliness, and he's attempted to leave the home before as well. There's no way that can't impact on his daughter.

I agree with the PP who says that it sounds as if the parents are in danger of scapegoating the daughter for everything that isn't perfect in their home.

You are blaming her for his PTSD, and she will have picked up on this. She's now testing to see how much you love her.

I have complex PTSD, I know how horrible it can be and how many things can trigger an episode. But you have to separate it from parenting. If I let every time my DS triggered me senfd me into meltdown, I would be an utterly incapable parent.

His attitude, combined with yours and the information people have shared from other threads (I've never understood the MN taboo placed on that - it is relevant) has lead to me agree with other posters; your DD is very much being turned into a scapegoat for issues bigger than her in your family.

Also - how can you expect her too understand what he's dealing with if you haven't told her?! How is she supposed to understand anything if you haven't discussed it properly? You want her to respect you more than you respect her.

Also, I was blamed by my father for something I had no responsibility for as a child. I'm still dealing with the trauma HE caused because of depression being untreated. If you honestly think her behavior is not linked to the blame you are putting on her, you need a sharp shock of reality.

This thread has got very long very quickly and some posters have made assumptions that just aren't the case and criticised me accordingly. As I say I don't think I explained well in my original post and have been drip feeding since so some people have misunderstood the facts as a result. Some posts have given me food for thought though particularly those suggesting family mediation which might be a thought. The link to PDA was interesting too as a lot sounded familiar. Even if it isn't that I think some of the approaches might work with her. If anyone thinks we haven't tried the usual boundaries, consequences, giving her responsibility, talking to her about how she feels etc. A "typical teen" would be a piece of cake to deal with in comparison. Much of the time she is fine but when she goes for it there is no stopping her and the intensity is frightening. I can't share it all here so sorry I know that makes it difficult to understand. And Dds behaviour predates DHs delicate state and ptsd for those posters who think it is the other way around. He was previously emotionally strong as was I so please don't judge. In the same circumsTances you might end up the same. As it is I might ask for thread to be removed as I've already given more information than I was going to originally and much of what I've said has been misunderstood, probably down to me not being more clear. Thank you anyone who has taken trouble to post. I will do my best for all my family, as always.

So fingers in ears and la la la then, yeah?

Good luck, Facefacts.

I'm now in utter despair. Your poor daughter. Perhaps you SHOULD kick her out, simply so she doesn't have to live in an oppressive environment where everything's her fault for not parenting her parents.

I really want to know how this child gave her father PTSD. How does that happen?

You have one child with ASD - could your daughter be affected as well ? - PDA is ASD....

If this is possibly the case - then can you look at her with compassion and not anger - respond to her outbursts as if she is having a panic attack / meltdown -- so employ C&R .... calm and reassurance - do not escalate or enrage - they are feeling out of control and are terrified and therefore attack - do not expect empathy or caring.

You said things were going well for sometime - your DD did as she was told in this instance - yes she was volatile - but so was your DH ...."He eventually did lose temper and fall apart"

I hope you kick her out. I think it will be the best thing for her.

I feel so sorry for her.