Think DD has just destroyed relationship with DH her dad. Final straw.

[Facefacts]

After a long rocky period with DD 17, I thought things were getting better. Again, tonight, DD determined to get her own way. Wanted boyfriend to come over we said no as I had to be away all day and overnight, husband had to leave later as working away. So after I left mid afternoon she has massive argument with poor DH who is already having counselling (partly from previous rocky period as well as other things). She is so unsympathetic and uncaring and verbally very attacking. DH in pieces, DD just continued attack. And flounced off to boyfriends saying would be back for 11. Just arriving back now. Refused lift back and DH couldn't face scene if just went to fetch her. He now has two hour drive and has to be up early. He's broken and I'm fuming with her. She has a brilliant social life. Saw boyfriend 2 or 3 times in week. Nightclub Friday and friend stayed over Saturday. Don't know how this is going to go but we have been on edge of throwing her out before for stunts like this. Is this what we have to do to save DH from total breakdown. When she decides she is doing something there is no compromise, no care of the impact on others. It seems the more understanding and caring we are the more she takes. Someone please give me a plan to change this before she throws away a lovely home and family.

cote sorry I didn't make myself clear. I meant that forcing anyone to stay in to concentrate on studies is often counter productive. You can sit them in front of a book for hours but unless you have their engagement and buy in no learning will happen. You can take a horse to water...

Sometimes people get so far behind they really can't put pen to paper, for fear of it going even more wrong. You see if you don't try, or just don't write anything, it feels like it's not wrong. You just haven't done it yet. Writing, yes trying is often painful, as it goes wrong. So you save yourself pain by avoiding it!

I

(Sorry, didn't realise it wasn't the done thing to look at previous threads! Apols, I'm new here..)

So OP you're saying your husband's psychiatrist (PTSD cannot be officially diagnosed by a therapist) has stated that your daughter is partly responsible for his developing PTSD?

Because that's bollocks. And if that's what he's told you, he's being downright manipulative if not an outright liar.

Your daughter, who is clearly troubled, in fact is already repeating a year at school because she has fallen behind, is being blamed as the cause of the household trouble, and everything is skewed towards your husband's delicate mental health.

Your daughter is a child and your husband is an adult. She needs your help and you have a responsibility to give it.

I'm very much seeing a scapegoating set up emerging here.

The more we hear about your DH, the more out seems as if your DD may be reacting to the strain of a parent who is fragile, yet inflexible - brittle, if you like. There is a phenomenon called compassion fatigue, in which a child loses all motivation to behave sensitively towards an overly sensitive parent as a result of emotional strain. You obviously see your dh as a victim of the situation, someone else has used the word vulnerable. What is making posters uneasy is a corresponding failure to also see your DD as vulnerable, yet being vulnerable is part and parcel of being a teenager.

You have signed up to love and accept your dh's problems and limitations, but she has not. Yes, one would hope that she will treat family members kindly and with respect, but not to the extent that you seem to expect, as if it is incumbent upon a 17 year old to sit in an empty house in order that he may be easy in his mind about her.

He may be a victim in some respects, but elements of this fragility may well have a rather victimising, controlling effect on others in his family circle. And that will infuriate and eventually drive away anyone with the freedom to go. As adults, we have the option of leaving a building if someone is behaving unreasonable towards us (and I'm in no doubt that it is highly unreasonable to say 'you must stay here on your own while we go out'). This is not an option for your DD.

This not going out on the evening for no good reason whatsoever seems to have been going on for ages and it's perhaps not surprising (though still regrettable) that your DD lost her temper. I would be irritated enough having to do it once.

I suggest it would be highly beneficial for your husband's state of mind to learn to take responsibility for his own state of mind, and to stop making demands of others that he knows will be contentious and are primarily about his own welfare. No amount of favors could make that worth living with.

Trying to help her not blame her so no scapegoating. Really desperate to help her because she has the potential to be a really lovely girl, very clever.
Why can't PTSD be cause by someone who is not yet an adult? If the flashbacks and nightmares that are being treated by the PTSD specialist involve the behaviour of the child, what conclusion would you draw?

OP, if a therapist said that a grown man with no previous mental health problems or traumatic experiences was having flashbacks and nightmares and PTSD over his teenage daughter's strops, I'd find another therapist quick smart, because this one's a fucking quack.

Have you been told, to your face, by a mental health care professional that your daughter caused and/or contributes to your husband's PTSD? Because I find that very difficult to believe. I agree with others on this thread that your whole family is expected to dance to whichever tune DH makes your DH feel safer in the present moment and that is not only inappropriate and - to be honest, abusive - but it's also not helping your husband get better or manage his condition. It's his condition, not your daughter's. He needs to get an engage with appropriate help and you need to understand that blaming your daughter even partially for how he is UNLESS you have been told officially that this is the case, is unfair and likely to damage your relationship with her permanently.

Your daugter's behaviour is a separate though related issue.

Why can't PTSD be cause by someone who is not yet an adult?
Are you saying that your daughter physically attacked her dad? Or grabbed the wheel while he was driving and caused a crash? Because that's a hell of a drip feed.

PTSD is caused by, you know, trauma. Such as a serious accident, an attack, a train crash, rape or sexual assault, witnessing an extreme act of violence, serving in combat. Not by a teenager shouting "fuck you I won't do what you tell me" and throwing something across the room.

To summarise the replies I have received:

I need to stop doing things for her and throw her out.

Or let her do what she likes without considering others and if it is inconvenient for us just suck it up.

Hmm. Great choice.

Thank you to the posters who get where we are/ have been there themselves. There are some ideas and links I will be looking at closely. And to anyone who thinks we are overreacting or shouldn't let it affect us if it was just this one instance I get why you think that. Much of the time we have a good relationship with her. But sometimes it is like a button has been pressed and a rocket goes up, can't talk to her, can't escape from her, can't get her to stop and unless you have experienced that you cannot know how it feels. I hope you never will because believe me you would almost certainly end up in the same emotional state as me and DH no matter how strong you think you are.

A child is not responsible in the same way that an adult is, OP. They just aren't. It doesn't make their behavior easier to deal with. But blame doesn't come into it. Once you have had a child, you have signed up to all the consequences of having that child during their whole childhood-you are responsible for everything that happens to you in connection with the child, and responsible for a great deal of what happens to the child as well! You have taken on a life that is more vulnerable than your own and taken the consequences of whatever they may do upon yourself to sort out. You are making them the priority. If they hurt you, the focus is not on your hurt but on your responsibility as a parent to help the child develop as a result of what happened. Everything is skewed to the child because they are still developing, impressionable, irresponsible, LEARNING.

It sounds as though your dh isn't perhaps cut out parenthood and although I have the greatest sympathy for him where the anxiety is concerned, when you are both so preoccupied with apportioning 'blame' to a girl who is far from being the worst teenager in existence, without attempting to consider things from her viewpoint, I am fighting the urge to tell you both to man up a bit. Mental illness doesn't need a reason. I feel depressed today but no one is responsible, even though I might not be if other people had done x y and z differently. It's not their fault i have this susceptibility, and I would only get more depressed if I thought like that.

His dreams and flashbacks may well be about his children because they are the most stressful element of his life and he is fragile, it says nothing at all about whose 'fault' it is, or how he may have contributed to the context.

It really sounds like you could benefit from some therapy yourself, OP, to help you untangle this complex situation. It doesn't sound like there's much room for your needs between managing your husband and your daughter.

It's interesting that you persistently dodge invitations to consider how your DD may be affected by your dh's issues.

FaceFacts Just a couple of qs - I can absolutely see how this is a trumatising and upsetting situation.

I wonder, does your DH have complex PTSD? - i.e. was there early or ongoing trauma before or synchronous with dd kicking off? Because trauma that has happened at an earlier point in his life will very likely have made him less resilient in the face of later difficulties, and this predisposition to trauma would not be your dd's fault. Also some time ago he was saying his condition was exacerbated by your not keeping the house organised - would you say that it was therefore partially your fault he was traumatised?

Do you have PTSD from your DD's behaviour? Seems it's been terribly upsetting for you, but you haven't mentioned having nightmares. I'm not saying it's your DH's fault that he's traumatised, but that it's not as simple as saying your dd is a traumatising person; she has made him ill; she must be stopped and it will be OK.

ASD often presents with similar symptoms to PTSD - extreme sensitivity to conflict & others' emotions, disturbances to routine, etc. So this might be worth thinking about too, and may help you find support that benefits the whole family.

I have no doubt that you love your daughter and want to help. I think this might be best achieved, though, through recognising that this is a very nuanced interpersonal issue and not a black and white case of dd as perp and dh as victim. Something was going on with DH before dd came along, I think.

xx

And YES to what TheProvincialLady says. I feel for you OP as you seem to be really squeezed out here. Best of luck.

xx

I am just wondering if you need to step back, OP, and let DH and DD thrash things out without you being there.

Having a third person as 'audience' could be flaming the situation, possibly?

Just suggesting it. Sound out DD and see if she would like to talk about how her DH treats her (or a similar suggestion that she might feel like discussing with him) one to one. You leaving the house so that they can speak openly about their feelings.

Knowing that she is 'getting at' both of you with her behaviour might be spurring her on.

Knowing that you and DH are discussing her behaviour together when she is not there might be aggravating her.

For those who have an idea that DD is reacting to DH, don't think that is the case as DD is same with me. Including while DH has worked away for a few weeks. And she is not main cause of PTSD but some of flashbacks and nightmares about her behaviour so no doubt thus has impacted him. PTSD specialist has not "blamed" DD but dealing with memories and teaching DH to deal with them. It isn't a quick fix. It takes all his strength to keep going each day so yes I am protective of him because he is trying to do his best for family. And is thoroughly kind to DD. Is it too much to ask for DD to be kind to me and DH?

I think you might find that you definition of 'thoroughly kind' and your daughter's actually vary quite a bit. One person's kindness is another person's being stifled. I'm not judging either party as right or wrong - just saying that it sounds to me as though you are only listening to one side of the problem - that of your DH - and not to your daughter. And not being heard is quite likely to cause rage (just look at all the MIL threads where this is the root of the problem). You seem to be judging based on your own convenience ("he's doing what's right for the family, she's rocking the boat") which is unfair to her.

Putting 'flashbacks' that are caused by PTSD onto your daughter is unlikely to be helping matters - lacing an already tough situation with unwarranted guilt is never going to help.

I have dealt with this by forgetting most stuff. Have been for counselling as well which helped. Reading back on things that happened I have blacked out details. Really struggle to remember but when a memory does pop up it is very traumatic for me too. Worry that I will have this come back and bite me at some point but for now it is protecting me. I think I also more forgiving by nature.
Not unaware that DHs fragility has impact on DD but DH is trying to put DD first often to his own detriment. DD rarely puts anyone other than herself first and I so wish she would learn to consider others. Not just us her parents, but other family members too. Her life would be so much more satisfying. I think her selfishness actually makes her unhappy. I suppose the essence of what I want to know is how to get her to be less selfish, more empathetic and this thread has got diverted somewhat, probably my fault.

Surprised by a lot I read. Had three daughters and two sons - never had problems like this. One boy, late teens, occasionally fell asleep on the train, but then he'd wake up farther down the line and walk home. His problem, not mine. Girls rarely a problem because they knew deep down, I'd put anyone who hurt them in hospital - NOT KIDDING. Now DW and I grandparents several times over. Kids need clear boundaries from the age of three, if not earlier. Boundaries change with age and their sense of personal responsibility. If one forgot their sports kit for school, they had to sort it. And there comes a time when all a parent needs to do, can do, is to pick up the pieces and stick them back together with a lot of patience and even more love. Had to do that with 4 out of 5, several times. My advice to OP is to let DD, now almost adult at 17, is to let her go her own way, but to have firm boundaries. My house, my rules. But be reasonable about it. "If you come in late, don't wake us up; if you're sick on the carpet, it's your job to clean it up". If they don't feel comfortable with DD having BF stay overnight, don't accept it. Tell her, "go shag somewhere else" (You won't stop them shagging). Her decision, her responsibility. If she wants BF over for a meal, she provides it - no money? Go get a part-time job in TESCO. Her decision, her responsibility. She wants to behave independently, great! Go ahead! "Your decision, your responsibility". But you don't stop loving them, being there for them, picking up the pieces, but on your terms, not theirs. Always, their decision, their responsibility.
Not saying it's was easy, but then parenting never is. Never quite got used to nappy duty!

So your dh has PTSD, flash backs and nightmares, and you have blacked out traumatic memories because of your dd's behaviour?

She's 17 now so she was younger again when she caused all of this.

What did she do that was so terrible?

Because that's an awful lot of blame to apportion to a teen girl whose parents are mentally unwell.

Eeeeee - 'Is it too much to ask' - please don't ever use that phrase to your dd. I was a model teenager (no drink, no drugs, no sex, no backchat, perfect grades), never had any particular desire to misbehave - EXCEPT when my mother said 'is it too much to ask...' and it made me want to take heroin and set the house on fire just to spite her.

Sorry, got a bit triggered there.

I think it may be you who has given the impression that this is mainly to do with DD and DH - DD ruining her relationship with him, not being caring to him, not putting him first. So that's what's given the sense that the conflict is primarily between them and you're in the middle.

No doubt you're all trying to do your best. I imagine it takes all your strength to get through the day, too, worrying about him and the dcs as well as having your own life to lead. Why all the focus, again on DH and his many sacrifices, when you are surely making a lot of your own?

Clearly there is more to this story than we will be able to understand or that you will be able to explain on this thread.

It does seem that having a family therapist who can mediate between all of you might really help translate your good intentions to one another. Your appeals to dd to be grateful and caring are not effective, her shouting is not getting her what she wants, DH is clearly not coping, DS is undoubtedly affected somewhere, and you're trying to balance everything, which must be exhausting. If you can find some help to ease you all out of this rut and communicate better without so much blame I think it will take a huge burden off your shoulders. I hope it will.

xx

I haven't read all the posts. Please start being tougher, if she wants money, you say no, too bad if she breaks a door, next time she asks for money, you say no, & tell her she has x chalked up from broken door. Stop driving her, facilitating her behaviour.
Going out throughout the week when her school work is not good, is not being kind to her. they need boundaries. they don't like them, but they do need them.
Also, as formerly asked, how much dope does she smoke ?
You may discover she is smoking regularly, this makes their school marks plummet. they get angry fast, they slam doors, want to be out all the time & are basically in need of a spliff,.... Hopefully she is not... ?

PS. Stop blaming yourself and feeling guilty. Big hugs and Sometimes things get derailed slowly and you're really unaware that something is amiss until it hits you in the face. My guess is you were probably too nice and kind and reasonable and thought you had to be friends with your daughter. Bad mistake! She treats you as if you are one of her mates at school or in the pub. Parents aren't friends for their kids and kids don't want that. Kids want a Mum and a Dad. Parents shouldn't be reasonable until their kids understand that reasonable behaviour begets a reasonable response. And that tantrums lead to the naughty step, or being put outside.

You absolutely cannot change another person (her selfishness), you can only change yourself.

And asking her to be considerate - it reminds me of the 'think of the starving people in Africa' when we left food on our plates.

Does DD know what DH's health probs are because expecting her to mind read won't work, she will just wonder what the secrecy is, why she can't be trusted with the facts. If this is the case it would be infuriating (keeping secrets as you know best for the DD). Does DD know that you have occasional traumatic memories?

Secrets were kept in my family growing up and what happens is that you conjure up what you think is the elephant in the room, the secret that only the adults are entitled to know, and what you conjure is much worse than the actuality. And it erodes your trust in your DPs.

If things are being kept from her I can understand her frustration and anger with you and DH. It makes you feel powerless.

If you want her to be less self absorbed, why not start by considering things from her perspective? If she's holding onto her own viewpoints as tightly as you are clinging onto yours and dh's you can hardly blame her. You don't seem tricky interested in ways that she's been impacted by your dh. BTW, these wouldn't be ways that works disappear when he wasn't in the house or only be in relation to him, it would be at a more basic level than that. 'Not unaware' is a far cry from 'engaged with it'.

It is nice that you now want to help her, but that hasn't been the focus up to now at all. You have been wanting others to agree that she is awful and putting you both through hell. We suspect it hasn't been rosy for her either but you're determined not to think about it. Consider that she can't afford to make dh her little wounded creature in the way that you can. Her job is to grow up and your job is to be resilient and selfless, though not endlessly self sacrificing.

A therapist will teach you to deal with anything that's a problem for you, doesn't mean it would be a problem for others, doesn't mean you're a victim.