Asperger's and relationships (again)

[MrsMiss]

I've been married for 10 years, and have four children, the youngest of whom is 3. Last year my husband was diagnosed with Asperger's. The psychiatrist said it was 'mild asperger's'. We'd waited a year for the diagnosis, and my dh refused to go for couples counselling until the diagnosis was made. In that time my mental health spiralled and I have had many points where I've felt at the end of my tether. I've been on anti-anxiety meds, and had counselling myself, and manage to drag myself to a place where I am now supposedly looking after myself.

I have good friends (none of whom know about the ASD), and have time away from the children (once a week I meet my friends for our 'sewing night' ) which is a big improvement on a couple of years ago where my life seemed to revolve around the young children, and I didn't have any time for myself.

We started seeing a relate counsellor in the Summer, but it wasn't great. We got lots of practical advice like maybe we could go on a weekend away, or ask for help blah blah blah… but nothing really addressing the issues within the relationship which are numerous.

Dh seems to think that the main problem is that we argue, and I shout and get angry. He would like to think we can compromise and have a rational discussion, but in truth, it is his way or nothing. He won't go out at all with other families or friends. He won't help out e.g. at the kids school, or cubs/beavers etc. It is hard to put across what it is like without it sounding like I'm being extremely unreasonable, wanting to have a certain life and having unrealistic expectations of him.

For me, I feel like I'm a single parent. He won't be part of a 'team'. He'll go out and buy presents for the children on his own, and arrange to do things with them on his own, for example when I'm out, but will have no part of 'sharing' anything as a family. He spends more time with our oldest daughter chatting and cooking etc than he does with me. I feel completely isolated, like a lodger in the house who has to serve all the people who live in the house, but otherwise keep out of the way and keep my thoughts and feelings to myself.

We've been on the same holiday for the last 10 years, we see one couple (his school friend and his wife) socially… I've carved out a new life with friends I've made through having the children, but dh won't have anything to do with them. He is rude to them - one husband of a friend asked if he'd like to join them (the other husbands) at a local pub quiz, and his flat response was 'no'.

When we initially got together he was very attentive and kind, and we were 'in love' and had the children in quick succession. Being pregnant 4 times has 'protected' me from the worst emotional problems if you like, because he has been 'on his best behaviour'. He did actually say that he couldn't cope if I was pregnant again. Now, he just doesn't speak to me. I feel that we job-share. Our responsibility is to look after the children, and we speak to share arrangements for the children. In the evening he can spend ours looking at videos and clips etc on his phone, and then will come to bed late. I try to carry on as normal, but am beyond lonely. I hate the constant atmosphere that he is oblivious to. He thinks if I'm not shouting, we're happy. I only shout out of complete exasperation, when I am completely worn down with his arguments, which are always logical and evidence-based and always right. Anything I say is just a waste of time.

We've been seeing a psychodynamic couples counsellor for a few months now, and it has been enlightening in some respects, but I'm just not sure she understands this asperger's thing. She sees it as a label, an unhelpful label, and thinks dh is no different from anyone else. That may be the case but he thinks he is different, and since he had the diagnosis it is as if all kindness and willingness to work together has evaporated, and I'm now supposed to accommodate what he calls his 'disability'. I've obviously tried the usual things - to communicate clearly, to be direct, to not expect him to want to be 'life and soul' of the party etc, but I can't cope with a life that is completely dictated by one person. I am trying to do my best for the children. I have supported them to join different groups and activities, to spend time with friends and other families even if I have to do it all on my own. Their friendships matter a lot to me, whereas I know dh wouldn't care if they never saw their friends.

I don't really know what I'm asking here, and I know that some people are going to tell me to leave him, and some people are going to say that I sound like a demanding monster. I wish I could get an objective view on whether I should continue to try to navigate through my emotions and the bleak loneliness and distress, and try to ignore every hope and dream I had of being a family and doing things together, or whether it would be a waste of my energy. I can't talk to people in real life about it all (he doesn't want them to know) and I worry that they wouldn't really understand anyway. I have times when I'd just like to walk away from it all. The children all show signs of similarity with dh, which makes it unbearable at times. I'm on egg-shells, dealing with tantrum after tantrum… just so lonely.

I am in a confusing position regarding aspergers?autism and marriage.
Also naïve at best.

But if a husband/wife was diagnosed with either spectrum, wasn't it apparent prior to the marriage?

How could it be "hidden" for so long only to become apparent after marriage.

Or, if it wasn't diagnosed prior to the marriage, what changed so much after marriage?

I ask as I am confused as to how behaviour etc could be "concealed" enough to marry, children , and relationship of years standing?

Yet sadly end in divorce due to this personality?

Basically, if the "behaviour" is apparent from the outset of the relationship, how would anyone imagine it would change, particularly once children came along?

Just asking if anyone can enlighten me please?

mild aspergers is also a discredit. What 'mild' means is fairly arbitary, but like 'high functioning' it often seems to make people think that they are 'just about normal' and if only they tried a bit harder they could be the same as everyone else.
They cant. High functioning should perhaps just mean academically able, as opposed to having the SEN needs that many on the spectrum often have. It means that they have managed to slip under the radar, and have managed, due to their intellegence, to have watched and copied how others behave in order to 'pass'
They CAN learn to behave differently, but that is really for the benefit of those around them, because it wont be a natural way for them to behave.

I think the problem is that 'abusive' and 'aspie' can look very similar, but you need to look underneath the surface to see what is driving the behaviour, and whether they mean to actually be unkind - is it premeditated ongoing socially manipulative behaviour, or selfishness. If selfishness, is there a self awareness to it?

There are things you will need to understand and accept - he will not automatically see stuff you do and do it, he just wont. He may, however, respond to a list of responsibilities that are regular and ongoing, that can be built into a routine. He may not be able to socialise, but you may be able to compromise into you doing many things with friends, but he does a handful of the most important things with you.

from your opening post it seems that the things he doesnt want to be involved with re the kids are those which would involve him having to interact with other parents. When you say he is rude to your friends I would suspect that he doesnt think he is being rude - they asked if he wanted to go out, he said no - a simple answer to a question, but brutally brunt.

I think there is a common thing for AS men to be very attentive initially - they have seen lots of films, they have read stuff and taken on board what 'being a boyfriend' is. Also they are obsessive, and in the initial stages YOU are the focus of their obsessions.

Shouting is going to prove impossible. Raised voices, high emotion - all horribly overwhelming in sensory and emotionally confusing input - imagine going to a foreign country, doing something that you do every day in the UK and suddenly you realise, because everyone starts screaming at you in a foreign language, and playing a screechy siren of fingernails being drawn down a blackboard, that you have made a terrible faux pas but you havent got a clue what it was.

Also the diagnosis is quite a thing to take on board. For some it is a relief, an explaination for why they have struggled to do things that others dont struggle with, a confirmation that they are not stupid. But for others it has a huge implication that they are somehow faulty.

Sadly he cannot change how he is. He can however learn about what it might take to make an AS-NT relationship work, but he will need to trust that sometimes his thinking is particular to AS - not wrong so much as different. You dont need marriage counselling per se, you need AS counselling, to learn how to discuss and negotiate. In order to feel safe he has had to develope some very fixed ways of looking at the world - they are his safety net, knowing how the world works makes him feel secure. Any time you disagree with him it challenges the whole structure of life - that may seem dramatic, but it is the case. My DP will need to go away and think about any new information which challenges his constructed world view. He will have to almost smash down everything he knew and rebuilt it to incorporate the new information.

This lady is a good read - she was diagnosed in her 40s so had quite a bit of adjustment to do - she wrote a blog during her first year post diagnosis, and a few books since then

headinaspin Most people dont know what Aspergers looks like. The spectrum is wide and varied, which is often why now we get an ASD diagnosis with a personal profile, rather than the cluster groups of Aspergers, etc.

Many adults, especially with the 'high functioning' label would not have been diagnosed, especially if they were smart, or they internalised their issues rather than acting out in school. They may have been the weird kids, the ones who were obsessed with trains, the quiet bookish nerdy ones, the little kid picked on in the playground who never quite seemed to be in on the joke. Maybe they aligned themselves with the alpha peer leader to avoid being picked on and to copy their behaviour so as to fit in. Girls, with more developed social skills, are still hugely underdiagnsose - my daughter received a diagnosis this year - she is 15. My partner has not been formally diagnosed, but our son has, and he is little a mini me of his dad. I didnt recognise it in my partner until I was considering it for my son, maybe 3 years ago. And only then because a friend had a very obvious AS boy and a relationship going off the rocks pretty much like the OP's. My own relationship had been similarly suffering and the label of abuse didnt fit. Side shifting it to consider AS made sense of everything, and he was open to investigating and accepting it. The subsequent diagnosis of both children just pretty much confirmed it in all our minds. Now I have to consider that I may be on there too, but what people would consider 'mild'.

Also the wide range of ASD was not really understood or diagnosed when many of todays adults were children. We were just difficult, nerdy, naughty, lazy, not living up to our potentials.

Sorry, forgot to add, the stresses and unpredictability of children can send the anxiety of someone with ASD over the edge. They also may not realise instinctively what needs doing, thereby leaving it all to the other parent. So sadly, as with abuse, but for totally different reasons, once children come along it can really accentuate the issues.
When stress levels are high the Aspie traits will be much nearer to the surface as a control over themselves and environment is more important in order to make themselves feel safe.

musingsofanaspie.com/2012/10/22/lessons-from-an-aspergers-nt-marriage-part-1/
musingsofanaspie.com/2012/10/29/lessons-from-an-aspergers-nt-marriage-part-2/
musingsofanaspie.com/2012/11/05/lessons-from-an-aspergers-nt-marriage-part-3/
musingsofanaspie.com/2012/11/12/lessons-from-an-aspergers-nt-marriage-part-4/

a positive light on it, instead of the usual doom and gloom

also the forum on here may be handy
www.different-together.co.uk/

Headinaspin, as NettleTea says, while a potential spouse is being courted with the aim of marriage, they become a special interest until the goal is achieved. Then the process, like a computer game, is over. The game is no longer of any interest: it has been won - game over, goal achieved. While the game is on, it is very intense indeed, and very heady.

Or they move into 'spouse mode' - an idea which will be a selection of behaviour patterns based upon what society/they have seen and identified as a 'spouse' behaviour

My DP had/has some very funny ideas about men and women and their respective roles/needs/desires, which are often at odds with his actual experience or what he really wants/needs

Unfortunately my dh's idea of spouse mode is based on his father, who also had Aspergers. Dh's mother was as lonely and desperate as I am.

Any idea how to rewrite the "spouse mode" script?

Oh, I have the beginning of an understanding...thank you so much nettletea....

What would you think if I said
*he was "sweet" between the meeting and marriage....2 years...
*Always "agreed " to go where she suggested.
*Always "followed" her in a social occasion.
*Never instigated and social event/day out/fun thing
**never offered an opinion, always agreeing with anything.

But after the marriage...

*Didn't like socialising.
*Said he was a "home bird"
*Preferred to go to familiar places, almost afraid to try anything new.
*Wouldn't drive to a place he has not been to before.
*has little "tantrums" when faced with something out of his comfort zone...i.e.doing diy then swearing or shouting when it didn't work out.
*Afraid to spend money, in fact being "tight"
*is resentful/envious/jealous of others who have a bigger house/car.
*isn't excited about life in general.
*would sooner spend each day similar to the last.
*has no sympathy/empathy for anyone else , even a family member who is at end of life...refusing to say his name....
*is totally focused on his needs and wants.
*becomes angry for the tiniest incident...i.e. drops something/looses something.

• would live in a bubble if she agreed to the isolation. *shows a "nice" face to neighbours, yet calls them names behind their back...in fact he doesn't like anyone at all, except himself, yet says he doesn't even like himself. *he has siblings ,but the only contact is a birthday/Christmas card, never phone calls/visits. Very confusing.

never offered an opinion, always agreeing with anything

is resentful/envious/jealous of others who have a bigger house/car.

shows a "nice" face to neighbours, yet calls them names behind their back...in fact he doesn't like anyone at all, except himself, yet says he doesn't even like himself

These are not very ASD I would say.
As I said, it is hard to spot the difference between ASD and a personality disorder at times, or plain old simple abuse, you need to look at the bigger picture and the history.

wasn't it apparent prior to the marriage?

headinaspin that’s a fair question. I agree with what others have said, plus two other reasons. Based on my experience with a DS rather than a DH but still…..

First, DS can seem very “perfectly normal, just a bit quirky” so long as he is only in familiar comfortable situations that happen to match his needs and abilities. But when you – or life – pull him a long way outside his manageable zone then it all falls apart. Maybe being at home with a wife and baby suited the MrsMiss’s DH very well. Only that couldn’t continue forever. MrsMiss might have been happy to put socialising on the back burner for a few years as many couples with babies do, but she wouldn’t have been expecting that to go on forever. And even if she had, multiple babies mean multiple demands, and babies grow into young children with very different needs – they disagree with adults and each other, they have social lives. And all those demands would be much harder for him to meet, he would spend less and less time in his manageable zone and it would get harder and harder for him to behave well.

And there’s the second thing. Expectations. Even though I could see some quirks I had very different expectations of my “ordinary” child before I knew he really wasn’t going to be “ordinary”. And even more so with an adult, you might not expect that a minor visible quirk could really be the tip of a deeply entrenched iceberg. For example you might enjoy going on holiday with his friends a couple of times and you might not realise it meant he couldn’t consider a holiday anywhere else with anyone else. He might expect it was fine the first time so it will be fine forever; whereas you might expect that after a few times he would be happy to try somewhere else. And you would both be wrong.

I did not need to re-evaluate my DH when DS was diagnosed. But when my own mother wanted to support DS and started to learn about ASCs she started to rethink a lot of things about my father! His odd communications and rigidities and anxieties that she had always put down to his coming from a foreign refugee background, she then realised might have been coming from a very different source.

The other thing that changed after marriage and as the children came along, is that I have less time. I used to spend hours, whole days sometimes, reassuring him after things that meant absolutely nothing, but because of his insecurity became huge issues, like me talking to another male etc. Every time we went out, either as a couple or with friends, I'd need to spend twice as long afterwards going through the whole event and talking about it in-depth. With young children there is just no time for this, and he cannot understand my apparent 'lack of patience'.

What is a naturally evolving social landscape for me - from school friends, to uni friends, to friends who have children the same age as ours who go to our school, he is still stuck on the first one, and cannot understand why I'd want to have 'new' friends.

We both have less time, and are more stressed. Having four children we have little time for ourselves as a couple. It was very easy to not spot the Asperger's at the beginning of our relationship. Although he felt he was on his 'best behaviour' during the four pregnancies, it wasn't as if it magically disappeared. It was just that I was so focused on what I had to do, and had realised that there was going to be little emotional support along the way. It was after the fourth when I imagined that things would improve, as we would come out of the tunnel of sleepless nights, nappies etc, that I began to question what was actually going on in our relationship.

I am genuinely confused how not to get frustrated and angry in situations where it feels like I'm totally alone, and having to cope with an impossible task. I would like to tell people so that at least I wouldn't feel so isolated with it. I did tell close members of my family, but their response was disbelief, as if we'd Googled something and decided it ourselves… I don't think they realised the extent to which dh has had to adapt and the extent to which he disguises his behaviour with them.

Look
Up Cassandra syndrome.
My mum has undiagnosed Aspergers and so much applied to me trying to help her and being left empty inside

MrsMiss I do think you should tell your friends. They will know that he doesn’t socialise with them. It may come as much less of a surprise to them than to your family.

Also try to keep talking to your family. They may need time to see through the mask. Do you tell them how he behaves, or have you been keeping the details from them a bit? For example surely they are going to think it’s a bit odd if they know he point-blank refuses to go on holiday except with these friends? In one way it doesn't matter whether he is being an aspie or an arse: you have the right to insist that either way you will not cover up for him. You may do things that help him but pretending is not one of them.

How old are your children?
I was fine when my dc were younger (also have 4), as I had a rough idea what to expect and I felt in control.
I'm finding things much harder now with teenagers, as they are irrational.

Does your dh have any strategies that help him wind down?
I need plenty of time to myself in order to manage the day to day stuff, without that I go to pieces and can only manage the bare bones, which must look to dh as if I'm opting out and being selfish.

The other thing is, the times when dh is frustrated, he doesn't tell me, so I can sense that he's not happy with me, but I have no idea and it makes me shut down and go into hermit mode, which makes things worse. It would work better for me if dh would say "I'm frustrated because xyz", but he doesn't as he thinks that would be hurtful.

Does your dh know you are frustrated and why? It may sound silly, and be something that you think he will understand, but he might not.

One of the things dh did for me was to help me write a list of things I need to do during the week, which again sounds silly, but if there is unexpected change, I forget about everything else I'm supposed to do. Things have to be done routinely, on the same days, or they won't be done.
I also have on the fridge a three month planner that I make, so I can write down everything that's coming up and get my head round things and prepare myself.
Would something like these help him, if he knows there are certain things he has to help with or join in, with a compromise that each day or week he has time to wind down?

Ultimately though, if it's too much for you, or it's not working, you are allowed to walk away.
I think it may sound like you have to make all the allowances, but you don't, he does too, but he may need some support to get there, but it's ok if you can't give that support.

Dh and I work because we are quite similar, we both respect that we need quiet time sometimes and time out, and try to work this out between us.

Tony Attwood, who wrote the Complete Guide to Asperger Syndrome, says that psychologists are increasingly finding co-morbidity with Asperger Syndrome when they do a diagnosis, eg someone might have AS and a personality disorder. So a dh might have AS, but, as represented in the rest of the population, also a personality disorder which makes them act like an arse/abuser. That is hard to disentangle, and should surely be left to the professionals, as should all diagnoses. But the professionals have to be prepared to consider AS as a diagnosis in people who have learnt to mask very effectively and thus get by.

The above is in answer to Headinaspin rather than the OP, sorry for going off-piste a bit there.

MrsMiss I really feel for you.

I split up with xh of 15 years as I felt like he wasn't interested in my or the DCs and he actually said that being asked to do things as a family made him angry and he didn't know why.

We tried Relate, but the counsellor said that he appeared to have no empathy and that counselling relies on empathy for each other so there was nothing she could do for us! She actually suggested that he might have Aspergers and it was something we had both suspected, both of him and DS1, so it didn't come as a surprise.

While she was not qualified to make a diagnosis herself, this gave him the push to find out more about it and he decided that this was indeed the problem. He has never been formally diagnosed due to his job needing a valid medical certificate and any suggestion of mental health issues could cause problems (think military)

Like your H he started to use this as a 'get out of jail free card' - whenever I asked him to do something with us or we had a disagreement he would just shut down the conversation with 'this makes me uncomfortable' so it became even more difficult to discuss issues we had, as he felt like his self-diagnosis gave him a special dispensation to opt out.

Fwiw since splitting up we are both happier, he has space to himself, a new DP who doesn't have DCs and doesn't make too many requests of him (she seems quite similar to him from what I can tell, quite distant and matter-of-fact. In fact he came round to my house upset once because she wasn't very supportive of him and was being quite cold towards him! Karma's a bitch!) and I have a really lovely DP who is emotional, gushing and affectionate - the complete opposite of XH!

I'm not saying LTB, but just bear in mind that if your relationship is this bad now, it can only get better whichever way it goes for you. By all means work on your marriage, but don't feel bad if you can't deal with this. It's hard enough dealing with a one -sided relationship when you feel like you're both invested in fixing it. Once you have a partner saying "there's nothing I can do, it's just the way I'm wired" then it's like banging your head against a very solid wall!

That is a very happy ending, MarkRuffalo.

I suspect/suspected for a while that dh is on the spectrum somewhere. We have a dc that has a diagnosis of aspergers. Thing is he totally denies it and claims he is "emotionally intelligent" so I cant even pursue it with him. TBH now I'm less sure. I think I have decided that actually his behaviour is more aptly defined as passive aggressive emotionaly abusive behaviour. Either way I am desperately unhappy in the relationship and he is never going to change so I just need to find the courage to do the sensible thing really....

I have two children who have a dx of ASD. My son has HFA and my daughter has PDA and ADHD.
My husband is most likely an undiagnosed Aspie ( as are his parents, siblings and my father......)

My husband is routine led, hates new things, will basically refuse to engage with people if he doesn't have to, can be anit social at times, will fixate on a project until it is finished without thinking about what I might like to do at the weekend...

However, he has been like this since the day we met! Because he isn't an arse who can switch his behaviour on and off. If he has to speak to people he will but he then needs time to recover. If he has to make a phone call he can but then needs time to recover. On arrival home form work he used to come in and then disappear into his garage for an hour without so much as a word. But I told him how sad that made me and now he comes in, says hello, hugs me and the kids and then disappears into the garage for an hour and fifteen minutes! He has been able to adjust his behaviour but then he needs extra time to recover. Again he has done this because he isn't an arse.

My husband is my best friend. he is tidy to an extreme but tolerates my mess as long as his garage is an oasis of tidiness he can retreat to. There is no second guessing him. He is who he is and that is that! he is not emotionally distant but he is emotionally different.

Maybe it helps us that I'm probably not hugely NT myself? ( I suspect our children are na explosion of not hugely NT genes coming together)

Just because someone has an ASD it doesn't stop them from being a git. But then not everyone who is an emotionally distant git has an ASD.
A relationship with someone with an ASD can be an amazing thing, if they are not also a git.

So much of this thread resonates. My exH exhibited lots of the behaviours described by PPs.

What broke us was me feeling so unsupported while needing to support/advise/accommodate my ex and the lack of affection.

I guess, the difference between making the relationship work is down to having lots of outside support, plus an Aspie partner who is able to make effort small adjustments to accommodate the NT partner. Not all Aspies can (make those adjustments)

Am marking my place before I lose this thread.

Am also married to someone who's suspected of being AS. Not diagnosed - but, the AQ score was 38/40. I scored 4/40.

It's a challenge to stay both married and sane. Recently started on some anti-anxiety medication, and, I really wish he'd do the same.

He's a good man, and, he's trying his best. Unfortunately, his best falls short and he's a bit of a dick most of the time. Entitled, selfish, neglectful and silent.

I really miss the Cassies thread on OTBT, which vanished after the hacking. I know the Different Together site, and, it's a great resource. But, I liked the wee thread and found it very supportive. Any of you guys Cassies?

I don't think my exH was an arse, or a git. Just a (kind and lovely) man (who has Aspergers)