Husband crossed a line (long)

[NCShouldLTB]

I was at a work event about 10 days ago that OH was also at. The next day, OH said he thought the dress was a bit too short for a work thing. To be totally honest, I was inclined to agree with him - it tended to ride up which I hadn't noticed before and I was also wearing less opaque tights than I usually would. It turned into a row as he was being dictatorial rather than "friendly word in your ear" about it. I also think there was an element of jealousy in it as he accused me of dressing up for the "dirty old men" at the event. Anyway, we rowed. I went out for the day with the kids. He picked us up. We had a more civilized conversation about it later on after the kids were in bed. I figured to myself I might cut the dress into a top or something as I didn't want it to go to waste if I didn't like the look of it with the proper tights the next time.

Cut to two nights later and I go to get a different dress ready for work and it's not in my closet. Nor is the short dress. He has taken 2 of my dresses. He first tells me he gave them to charity but then admits they are in the shed. I am beyond furious and tell him so, don't get into any debate about the why he took them or anything, just tell him it is in no way acceptable to take my clothes. Tell him it's abusive, controlling etc. He apologises (which is extremely rare for him - to actually say it out loud, he's usually more the type to show he's sorry by actions than words). He says we can go shopping to get me something new. I am not mad keen on the idea - prefer to shop alone and don't really want his input anyway and certainly not him checking hem lengths for respectability in any way, shape or form. However, he is really making an effort so I go along with the idea.

However, the taking of the dresses plays on my mind a lot - it crosses such a terrible line. I emailed my thoughts on it and he agreed it crossed a line but his reply also implied some level of him believing he "had to" to get my attention as I was not taking him seriously. Bleurgh.

Then, this evening, I went to check about another dress of mine that I need to do a bit of mending on. This is a dress that would not look amiss on Kate Middleton - not that this it really matters either way, it was MY dress - and he has taken that too. He did not mention to me that he had taken more than the ones I knew about. And he did not take the opportunity to replace them in my closet in the week or so they were in the shed. In fact, there were 5 more dresses in there, including the one that needed mending. Again, not that it matters because they were MINE - but his point was about not giving the wrong idea in a work environment where there are known lecherous blokes and women who work there who dress in any way provocatively have been asked if they are sleeping with the boss - and only two of these could be considered non work appropriate.

So I am furious again but he is out so we can't thrash it out so I am here. I think he just doesn't like my style at work and think I should dress more office wearish. I disagree but that is not the big thing. The big think is that he thought it was ok to go into my closet and confiscate stuff.

So yes, there are thoughts of LTB in my head especially as there have been a few comments in the past year that have slightly struck a wrong note about his attitude to his role as husband being a controlling one. However, we have been together 11 years, married 8 and have 2 kids. He doesn't have form for this in the previous years.

And i mostly needed to brain dump as he is out so I can't dump on him right now and tell him how bloody wrong he is.

Well done if you got this far.

I think you need to properly think long and hard about whether this is really the first signs of weird controlling behaviour.

If you are 100% sure it is, then it is a change in character that I would wonder if it is not the beginning of some kind of unravelling.

I have just sat and imagined my dp doing this, and the word 'repulsive' seemed very apt.

Is it weird and a bit controlling...yes. LTB...hell no. Especially if he has been a good partner for so long. Why does everyone want to run away from problems. It is a red flag but just work through them and don't let him get away with it.

Chillycurtains, some problems can be worked through. Some should be run away from, because they are dangerous.

Losing self-esteem through unemployment can make a person feel resentful, yes. This might be unhelpfully expressed by, for instance, passive-aggressive remarks about the working partner going to lovely restaurants with work or talking a lot about work when they get home. That sort of thing, while unpleasant, is easily understood and can be discussed with a view to resolution.

But ...
Implying that the working partner's unfaithful, or wants to be;
Disclosing a view that men are dirty rats, and women's clothing is responsible for their sleazy actions;
Trying to impose a different (dowdier) style on your partner;
Confiscating your partner's clothes;
Lying - twice! - about having done that;
Trying to blame the partner for those actions;
Trying to justify those actions
... Isn't a red flag; it's a minimum of seven!
The underlying attitudes to every single one of them are, as described, repulsive.
You can't change someone's underlying attitudes with a damn good row. All you can do is push them back under cover, but they will find a way to assert themselves again - and you both know it, so the relationship's altered for ever.

I agree with Mylife and Lobster that there must have been earlier signs of an abnormal desire to control other people - and you, NC - that would have been easier to brush off whilst he was getting most of his bullying kicks at work.

Mind, I also understand that this sudden & intense manifestation of horrid qualities is a shock, when you'd thought you had a fairly equal relationship. You might well need to go through a few cycles before your opinion firms up. But try not to, or at least not so many that you start losing your mojo as so painfully described above, by those who've been there.

What the hell does what happens at your workplace have to do with him anyway? He presumably doesn't know the people or the culture there - you are the person who knows what normal work clothing is, what the relationships are, what people may think about what you wear, and indeed you know whether they are the kind of people who even care or notice or let it influence their view of you. If he doesn't trust you to make those judgments about the place you spend several hours in every day of the week, there are serious issues going on.

Go into his wardrobe and pinch lots of his stuff and tell him you've decided you don't like it, old fashioned, doesn't fit, reminds you of something your ex used to wear, blah blah blah. Or take his Ipad or something else he values because 'he spends too much time on it'.
There must be something you could take that would really wind him up.

Then tell him you like this new approach as it gives you so much more power to do what YOU like with HIS things.

I'd be bloody furious if my DH ever went through my wardrobe like that! If he made comment about something being too tight/short/whatever I'd actually be inclined to wear it more often to piss him off.

Is there any chance someone made a comment to him at the event that made him worry about 'rumours' that set this off?

His actions are totally unacceptable. There is no grey area. You're his partner, not his 5 yr old child. This would be a HUGE red flag for me.

If he thinks he can decide what you should wear and can just take your things away when he pleases, where will it lead?

Shows a controlling, insecure, disrespectful nature at best...

First - As a side note, have you seen the opaque tights with pretend stocking tops?!!
Yes, I do not like them.

I totally agree that the detail of the dresses is irrelevant in the face of the issue of control of him taking them.
I also fully agree that unless he admits that it was an awful thing to do and unacceptable under any circumstances, we can't really move forward.

He does know the work people as he used to work there too, as it happens but I really don't think anyone would have said anything. I have a work friend who would have made a joking remark if she considered it too short. I asked her about it now, specifically and she thinks it was lovely.

I am now being calm (calmly furious, but calm) and consistent in re-stating how unacceptable it was to do this, no matter the circumstances, this is not how you deal with them. Am not being drawn into arguments about this dress or that dress or any other side issues.

He is out of work 'cause his contract ended. He now has two job offers and is hammering out the nuts and bolts of which one to accept.
He is not a bullying type at work. I know this as I have been in several workplaces with him and know colleagues. However, he is very fulfilled by his work so not being at work has been hard.

Again - the above does not excuse it but I think it may explain why this behaviour has arisen. I totally agree that it is a nasty tendency that needs to be addressed and not just put down as "oh dear, he was under stress" but it is helpful to have an explanation of why it has arisen.

Urgh.

It is very wierd & horribly controlling, I would be beyond livid if DH did this-there is no fucking way I'd agree to a shopping trip.

Why is he so concerned that 'rumours' will start at work? Presumably he thinks this will somehow reflect badly on him. Or is he suggesting that you have some ulterior motive e.g. desire for a liaison with one of the dirty old men?

I would want to know exactly the nature of the problem he thought the supposedly too short dress would cause (do not let him weasel out of telling you, especially not by apologising. It's important to know).

And when I did, I would want to know why he chose to creep around, misappropriate your things, guilt-trip you, lie by omission and have a row instead of giving you kind advice and then trust you to deal with matters by yourself.

I would also want to know how he thinks the joint shopping trip would work. Is he going to veto your choices? Dictate his own? Why does he think you need help choosing workwear? If you don't agree on the right style for work, why does he think his idea of what's appropriate should trump yours? Is he going to allow you the same say in his dress and behaviour?

In other words, I do think this is one of those problems were you have got to really drill down to what on earth is at the heart of this. Force him to be really frank and specific about what on earth he was playing at. Then explain with equal specificity why he just can't decide to withdraw all adult autonomy from you and what you will do if he tries it again.

Have just bought opaque tights to put into my daughters Xmas stockings. I know they'll be delighted.

Putting the dresses in the shed is weird. It's a game changer all right. Are you happy to stay with him? I'm not sure I could be intimate with someone who does such a thing (and then has the cheek to suggest a shopping trip). Sorry, not helpful. But he sounds way off.

It's surprising that you guys have been together so long and he's never done this before. I would strongly advise you to nip it in the bud now (if you can) BE FURIOUS and let him know that it is completely unnacceptable and you feel controlled etc. hopefully he will realise and the controlling behaviour won't manifest.

sorry to hear about your troubles OP. I hope you manage to come to some sort of understanding because I think it will escalate if you don't.

When I was around 18yrs old my friends brother did the same to her, her mother used to do his bidding shed call me to make sure I was with her daughter?. It went from one upsetting event to increasingly controlling behaviours. I'm shocked she stayed at home I think I would have left.

He's not secretly paranoid that you're having an affair with a colleague?

Doesn't make what he did acceptable but more exploring why he is suddenly being such an arse after such a long time?

Thanks for your update, NC. So you're sure this has come apparently from nowhere - that's even weirder, really! Do you think he might be self-medicating through his time off & job search? Coke, steroids for the gym, even more alcohol than normal??

Garlick - he doesn't drink or anything like that.
I would say that there may be times where he has maybe tried to assert some sort of authority that is not his to assert but has never actually done anything like this. We've sorted it out - you know - I would say "well, erm, that's not your decision to make" or whatever, as appropriate, and that would be that. He did get over-protective after I had a medical scare in the summer but he got a terrible fright and I could understand that and he backed down once I had the all clear. However, this has clearly crossed a line beyond acceptable for me.

He is all over the place with his "justifications" - not wanting rumours to spread (boss is known to have affairs and there are bitchy people in the workplace but) as my reputation would be damaged, then says I need to dress respectfully and lead by example to the DCs but is fine for these dresses to be worn outside the workplace so that doesn't really make sense and then he also was wondering if I should dress a bit more businessy to show my status in the workplace...so "reasoning" is all over the place really. Not consistent and none of it stands up to scrutiny and, even if it did his behaviour crossed a line that has deeply troubled me.

Bottom line- he got a bee in his bonnet about this dress which was exacerbated by me being out on a fancy dinner in it while he was at home with the DCs and rather than realising it is a bit of jealousy/insecurity on his part, he has decided the dress was highly inappropriate, my reputation and job might be at stake and I needed to pay more attention to this. When he mentioned it and he felt I wasn't taking it on board or was being dismissive (and, to my shame, I was looking at my 'phone at the time, partly because he made me so angry, I needed distraction, I think), it escalated to him taking the dresses.

If he can say "yes, I crossed the line, I see that and I am sorry" or make that clear to me, we can get past this. If he keeps blustering with "but you made me so frustrated not listening to me" and stuff like that, I will be in a "preparing to leave" sort of state.
If he mentions the shopping trip again, I will explain why I don't think it would be a good idea and why I don't want to go.

It wasn't even the first time I had worn the bloody dress either - I even think I remember trying it on and showing him ('cause he happened to be in the bedroom and I was excited about my purchase). It was the first time I had worn it with these more sheer tights.

Again, the issue is beyond the dress now - as someone said, I could have worn Anne Summers lingerie and he would have been within his rights to say "erm, NC, not sure that was the best choice for work" but not to take the stuff.

There is one thing that might have caused this to crop up now for the first (hopefully only) time, and that is projection of his own behaviour onto you.

Wrt the shopping trip:
Don't use phrases like 'I don't think...'
State 'It is completely out of the question and I will not participate in my own degradation and humiliation at your hands.'

Not sure what you mean mathanxiety - that he is looking for extra-marital action? Or what?

Yes, I will avoid qualifiers and "think" and "maybe" if the shopping trip is mentioned. I will be clear.

This is one of those times I wish I could carry you in my handbag, math :)

Lol at Garlick. I consider myself quite good at choosing my words carefully when it counts....usually anyway so I hope I will be able to convey clearly exactly what I mean.

My white hot fury has certainly taken him aback. I am usually quick to forgive but things have usually been a lot more forgiveable.

I seriously think your husband took your clothes to wear them, not to make sure you didn't have them. Your slinkiest dresses, plus something Kate Middleton might wear? I've got five quid says he's a fetishist. They're always the ones you least suspect...

Don't let him take you shopping. He will try to decide what clothes you should buy.

Womb They weren't slinky...but that is a side issue. No, he definitely, definitely was not cross-dressing. That makes no sense - why would he bring them to the shed!? There is no mirror there and it's cold and full of the lawn mower and bicycles. He could very easily just try them on in the comfort of our bedroom were he so inclined.

BigPants No, we won't be going shopping. I was half-considering it when it was just the two dresses and we'd spoken after that but to discover more....no, not going there.

I reckon he could be projecting too

Sudden fears about "rumours starting" and a new interest in how you dress at work ?

Fishy

AnyFucker so you suspect he is having an affair?
Way off track, I believe. Nothing else points that way - not secretive with his 'phone, passwords or anything like this. In fact, because he is rubbish at telling me when is on his way home, he suggested I download a "find my Friends" app (this was a year ago or more) so if I am wondering if he's going to be home for dinner/kids' bedtime or whatever, I can see where he is.
As he's been at home for close to 6 months, he hasn't really had anyone to start an affair with - the only neighbour who isn't out all day is a 70 year old man.