I'm turning into one of THOSE posters...

[0verNow]

...with multiple threads asking for advice about the same situation.

I'm trying to decide whether to end my marriage. I'm not looking for different advice from previous threads, but two of my other threads had to be deleted because DH found them, and the other is now quite long and things have moved on a bit - so I thought it might be better to start a new thread.

In summary, DH and I have been together for 10 years, married for 4 years and have 3 DCs.

There have been three issues in our marriage.

1. Right from the early days of our relationship, DH has been low-level EA. The kind of 'death by a thousand cuts' EA that sounds petty on paper but grinds your love to dust. This is the issue that brought us to counselling in the first place. DH is adamant that he wasn't deliberately abusive, just thoughtless and entitled and self-centred.

Since we started counselling, two more issues have emerged, each much more damaging (in my opinion) than the first.

2. Financial abuse. (I'm the poster whose DH spent £16k on counselling and lied to me about it.) I just didn't see it - in fact, DH had me convinced that I was crap with money. I'm still kicking myself that I was so blind.

3. DH's lies. He has lied about small things, and (at least) two enormous things (that I know of). I think lying is his default setting whenever it's more convenient than telling the truth.

Of these, 2 is largely resolved going forward. I have separated my finances from his, and although I still don't have access to our historic savings DH has offered to add me to all of his accounts.

1 is tricky. DH has been treating me well for 3 months now. I'd be interested to hear whether people think this is a new, improved DH - or just the old one on best behaviour, in which case he's likely to revert to type when he starts to relax.

But 3 is the big one for me. I don't know that I can get passed it.

There is one event which I'm particularly struggling with. It happened in 2007, and DH has lied and lied and lied to me about it. He was even still lying about it after counselling started. He has now given me 4 different versions of what happened, each one painting him in steadily worse light. The last version, which only came out last week because our counsellor forced the position, involved him covering up behaviour at work which was gross misconduct at best, and possibly criminal.

DH says that it all happened more than 8 years ago, and that living through the consequences of his 2007 behaviour has fundamentally changed him as a person.

But from my perspective, it's not 8 years old, it's all new to me. And it's not just the event from 8 years ago, it's the lies he's been telling me ever since. And I'm not at all convinced that he has changed as a person - given the ongoing lies, big and small.

I don't trust him. I still don't know if I've got to the truth about what happened in 2007. I don't know if there are other things still to discover.

If I'd known the truth 8 years ago, I would have left him. I'm very clear about that. But we didn't have DCs 8 years ago, and now we do (DC1 was conceived in the immediate aftermath).

I'm also very clear that I would not be with him now were it not for the DCs.

Am I being unreasonable to end my marriage over something that happened 8 years ago? Will my DCs hate me for splitting up their home?

I just want to do what's for the best, primarily for the DCs but also for myself.

"Any why should he be the one to have to move out, when we share care 50:50 and it's my choice to leave him"

And why should he stay in the current marital home at all?.

What makes you think he will be at all interested in 50/50 care for his children in the longer term?. All this man has ever thought of is him and his own self interest.

My solicitor has sent me a very brief email reply. I was going to C&P it, but then thought that was a bit unfair on her. So I'll do my best to summarise:

• It's quite a common arrangement, in her experience.
• she would find it psychologically difficult to live like that, compared to 'proper' split, and I need to ask myself if I would find it too hard.
• is it in the DCs' best interests to effectively have parents swapping and changing? (She doesn't offer an answer, just asks the question)
• It is not a bad idea to have a 'dry run' of 50:50 care, particularly before we reach a financial settlement for the divorce (which will be based on the DCs' residency).
• we will be establishing a precedent so I have to be happy with what we agree rather than agreeing something to make H's life easier (i.e. if he says he's doing 50:50 but isn't in reality).

The 50:50 sharing homes and childcare sounds like the fair and possible thing - but it really isn't. It will be absolute hell and you need privacy and your own space.

You will be continually enforcing your boundaries with never any rest.

Imagine he does nothing in either place, so you end up doing all the chores in both places, for example?

He's the one who has made the relationship untenable, don't think you owe him because you're the one ending it.

If that's a fair summary of what your solicitor has written then she has written, in a coded form, THIS IS A REALLY BAD IDEA.

The two things that absolutely leap out at me are (once it's been decoded):

1. there's no way I'd do it; and
2. there's a risk of harm to your children.

What nauticant said!

Nauticant, may I IM you exactly what she did say? So you can see if it is a fair summary?

The other way to look at it is you do the evening shift with the DC so at the moment you are dealing with the bedtime ritual that goes with having residency. He is doing the job of the childminders. He is not doing 50/50.

I really wouldn't as he doesn't do 50:50 - when are you going to get your evenings off to go out and rebuild a life?

You would be better off having a nanny or childminder doing the early morning shifts and him doing one evening per week plus alternate weekends.

Fantastic advice up thread , just delurking to throw my thoughts into the ring.

You said before that he would put you on some joint accounts - don't .
You must seperate your finances totally & don't agree to the absolute until you have all the finances thrashed out . So much more difficult to go back to court after as well.

Good luck you are sounding much stronger !

Sounds like you'll continue to be enmeshed with him to the absolute hilt. He's not going to let you go easily, he will continue to control the minutiae of your life to the nth degree. He has no intention of giving you autonomy. It will be like still being married to him - but worse. Hard to imagine huh.

The only way to hack off this flesh-eating rampant virus is with a scythe: chop chop. Hack hack. He will never let go. He will, and is, using the kids.

Incidentally, why is it you on the floor? Why is it you clearing it away for his fucking parents? And wtf are they there? You've split, end of. Stop taking responsibility like a hang dog. You've split bcs he is a rabidly controlling arsehole - yy you made the decision (not before time!!) but it's a level playing field: you've split. Period.

He'll milk everything. Don't let him. Don't let him drag you over the coals, don't let him punish you.

The house swap is a bad idea from your pov. It sounds fair but it means he will be constantly in your things, in your stuff, he will be checking up on you all the time. You will have no privacy at all. He will see all your letters. He will put things in your knicker drawer, he will move things around and hide stuff. He will wrong foot you all the time. You will feel worse than you do now.

Please don't do it.

You and he are separating. Make yourselves separate. It will make it easier for the children to understand as well, and will be more stable for them because the boundaries will be clearer. What he has proposed is a power play and will fuck everyone up except him.

The plan isn't that I'll keep doing the mornings and he'll keep doing the evenings.

I've suggest one week on, one week off. He's said that's too long to go without seeing the DCs.

I've told him that propose an alternative. That's what we'll be discussing tomorrow.

TBH, we need to discuss the division of childcare whether we do the flat thing or not (and I clearly hear you saying NOT).

Well I'm sorry if he thinks a week is too long but tough he should have thought of that when he was telling all those lies.

Access is for the benefit of the children not him, & TBH if he has them for a week what poison will he pour into their ears?

Every Other weekend plus one night or two at a push mid week is normal.

You are entitled to stay in the marital home until the youngest is 18 HE should be moving out. Then you can sell the house & split the proceeds, this can be tied up in the divorce settlement.

Your discussion with him will be used by him against you. He will twist it to make you feel unreasonable. He will never be reasonable. You like so many victims of controlling men co-operate with the abuser, the abuser never co-operates.

He still has all the power and control here within this relationship really
and will continue to hold that over you for as long as humanely possible.

I would not want this man to take care of a goldfish for 15 minutes; let alone your vulnerable children who are also being manipulated here by him too. He wants them for a week at a time; no no and no again. He is using them also to bash you emotionally with as well.

If you really do want to do the best by your DC as well as yourself you will take the bull by the horns and get a solicitor highly skilled in the ways of manipulative controllers onto him.

Right from the start, the best thing about separating from my abusive XH was being able to shut the front door at the end of the day and know that nobody was going to be able to come in and breach the sanctity of my home. Kids safely gathered in - we could laugh, have fun and cosy up for the evening. No shithead coming in through the door and creating a black cloud for everyone.

YOU NEED YOUR OWN SPACE. Do this for the sake of the children as well. They will be feeling the same feeling of nerves, edginess and tension around him that you do. Don't do it. You deserve space that he can't invade. That, to me, is the point of splitting up. If you share premises like that then you will never be free, never be private, never get him out of your face. You are so used to him being in your face and being utterly controlling that you think it is normal. You have to rip him off you. He is not going to like it. He is not going to make it easy. But it will be better than living with him.

Tell him you have changed your mind about the swapping houses. Don't let yourself to get argued back into it. You need to separate, you've thought about the swapping houses idea and have realised it won't work. Full Stop.

What springydaffs said with knobs on: He has no intention of giving you autonomy.

Don't wait for him to give you autonomy. GRAB IT.

This is the bit where you have to be strong. You can do it.

Yes, agree with Attila - you need to press the point home with the solicitor that he is a manipulative, controlling abuser... you need someone who is confident dealing with this. You need someone who can be really tough and see him coming and go in hard. You need this back-up as not all solicitors have dealt with extreme cases like him and he is likely to be obstructive, hostile, aggressive, the works.

I have every confidence that my solicitor is a SHL. She handled my friend's divorce from a(nother) truly awful man with great intelligence and aplomb.

Good.

Don't forget his default position is to lie. He will lie and lie and lie. Your children will need a home where lies aren't the default, so it's up to you to make your home, wherever that is, is the place where the truth lives.

I know of only one couple who managed the 50:50 apt/home thing for about a year whilst the formalities were worked out. BUT, they both wanted the divorce and things were basically amicable between them and they were both financially self-supporting. There were some squabbles on housekeeping and privacy, but since they were both motivated for the kids, they worked it out. That's not your situation though, is it? Once the divorce was finalized, she bought him out of the house and he took over the apt.

I agree with the solicitor's advice to not start something that you aren't going to want to continue and not doing anything with the idea of 'making it easier' on stbx.

Just adding to the chorus here saying there's no way I'd do that. Not with this man.

Can I suggest that you unobtrusively record the "meeting" with him tomorrow on your phone. You can then make notes of what was said so that in a few days/weeks/months when he's lying about what was agreed, you can say "In our meeting on 20th November, you stated then XYZ..."

Put your shields up. Picture yourself as the Enterprise and make sure Mr Sulu gets those shields in place, because this man hasn't given up yet. He will throw emotional stuff at you, just don't react. Your decision is made - stick to it. You don't owe him any discussions, explanations, or final chances to plead his case. Just keep bringing him back with "We're discussing the arrangements of housing and children, nothing else."

I send my SHL another email last night asking her outright if her email was coded language for "Don't even think about it".

She replied overnight (I love my solicitor).

She said her real message was: keep in mind the potential consequences of setting a precedent and don't agree things I'm not happy with. She also said she isn't a child psychologist so genuinely has no idea as to the pros and cons for the children - but don't give H too much time to shuffle finances around.

I'll be back after I've met with H.

Good luck. Stay strong.

The problem with this arrangement is that you still don't get your own life.

Which is great for him!

And if he dips out on anything, you will be there to pick up the pieces.

And it still allows a high level of chip chip emotional abuse straight at you.

No way would I recommend this to anyone, let alone someone in an abusive relationship. What you need it a clear cut split.

Your abusive ex has zero negotiating capacity. Anything other than 100% his way and you will get payback. Trying to negotiate as if he is a reasonable person with the best interests of your DC at heart, is very misguided. You will need as clean a split as possible with every last detail pinned down in writing. And he will still play games and thwart you at every opportunity.

Don't share the house 50/50. you will be living out of suitcases. the kids will not benefit from it. He will leave it a shit hole when his week is over, eat all the food, & leave the laundry.
All you get is a week of miserable crap flat & double the housework, while missing the kids & leaving them in his "care" for 7 days.
plus if this fails he can prove he has been a co primary carer. for any later access dispute.
You are going to have to tell him, divorce is irrevocable, the house is going on the market & he is moving out, child access can be decided by the court if he isn't in agreement, in view of him making everyone dance to his tune rather than doing what is best for his children.
Good Luck today, take notes, it will help to remember what was said.