I'm turning into one of THOSE posters...

[0verNow]

...with multiple threads asking for advice about the same situation.

I'm trying to decide whether to end my marriage. I'm not looking for different advice from previous threads, but two of my other threads had to be deleted because DH found them, and the other is now quite long and things have moved on a bit - so I thought it might be better to start a new thread.

In summary, DH and I have been together for 10 years, married for 4 years and have 3 DCs.

There have been three issues in our marriage.

1. Right from the early days of our relationship, DH has been low-level EA. The kind of 'death by a thousand cuts' EA that sounds petty on paper but grinds your love to dust. This is the issue that brought us to counselling in the first place. DH is adamant that he wasn't deliberately abusive, just thoughtless and entitled and self-centred.

Since we started counselling, two more issues have emerged, each much more damaging (in my opinion) than the first.

2. Financial abuse. (I'm the poster whose DH spent £16k on counselling and lied to me about it.) I just didn't see it - in fact, DH had me convinced that I was crap with money. I'm still kicking myself that I was so blind.

3. DH's lies. He has lied about small things, and (at least) two enormous things (that I know of). I think lying is his default setting whenever it's more convenient than telling the truth.

Of these, 2 is largely resolved going forward. I have separated my finances from his, and although I still don't have access to our historic savings DH has offered to add me to all of his accounts.

1 is tricky. DH has been treating me well for 3 months now. I'd be interested to hear whether people think this is a new, improved DH - or just the old one on best behaviour, in which case he's likely to revert to type when he starts to relax.

But 3 is the big one for me. I don't know that I can get passed it.

There is one event which I'm particularly struggling with. It happened in 2007, and DH has lied and lied and lied to me about it. He was even still lying about it after counselling started. He has now given me 4 different versions of what happened, each one painting him in steadily worse light. The last version, which only came out last week because our counsellor forced the position, involved him covering up behaviour at work which was gross misconduct at best, and possibly criminal.

DH says that it all happened more than 8 years ago, and that living through the consequences of his 2007 behaviour has fundamentally changed him as a person.

But from my perspective, it's not 8 years old, it's all new to me. And it's not just the event from 8 years ago, it's the lies he's been telling me ever since. And I'm not at all convinced that he has changed as a person - given the ongoing lies, big and small.

I don't trust him. I still don't know if I've got to the truth about what happened in 2007. I don't know if there are other things still to discover.

If I'd known the truth 8 years ago, I would have left him. I'm very clear about that. But we didn't have DCs 8 years ago, and now we do (DC1 was conceived in the immediate aftermath).

I'm also very clear that I would not be with him now were it not for the DCs.

Am I being unreasonable to end my marriage over something that happened 8 years ago? Will my DCs hate me for splitting up their home?

I just want to do what's for the best, primarily for the DCs but also for myself.

Doreen has it spot on ^^

Record, take notes. When he has finished telling you what he wants to happen, sum up, and check what responsibilities he will take on and when. Don't expect him to keep agreements like other people do, he will squirm and twist things in v unexpected ways.

A small example:
Him: I'll take on the hoovering.
You ( suspicious): you'll hoover regularly?
Him (hurt): Yes
Next year, you have been hoovering every week as he doesn't. He does it about every 3 months.
You: You promised you'd do the hoovering!
Him: I do.
You: Regularly! You promised you'd do it regularly.
Him: Every 3 months is regularly.
Which it is, but not what you meant, and not what he knew you meant, but he could make the promise because he knew there'd be some way he could get around keeping it while simultaneously playing with your mind.

KOKO thinking of you today

It didn't start very well.

As you all predicted, he opened with his raw his emotions are. I said that the purpose of the meeting was to discuss practicalities not emotions.

Then he started doing this weird passive-aggressive thing where he would only talk if I was looking at him; as soon as I looked away he simply stopped talking. I told him I wasn't going to conduct the entire conversation gazing into his eyes, and he stopped doing it. (It makes me furious that when I tried to talk to him in the past he wouldn't even turn off the TV, but today he expected rapt attention.)

Then he started calling me 'my love' in every other sentence. I asked him not too (and probably wasn't too pleasant in my tone). He told me he would call me whatever he liked. So I stood up to leave. And he immediately backed down.

After that, things improved.

He's adamant that he wants 50:50 childcare, and that he'll leave his current job if he can't make it work. Thing is, if he can manage it, and if the DCs are happy, then 50:50 would suit me better too. We thrashed out a schedule that might work for both of us, and I think we'll give it a go. But I'm going to keep a diary and record every instance where he doesn't stick to the schedule (or where the boys are unhappy) so I have proof if he can't sustain it.

We also agreed what we'll tell people (basically that we've split, we're amicable, and if anyone pushes for details that there were faults on both sides that meant we stopped making each other happy) and what we'll tell the children (that we love them and always will, that it's not their fault, that sometimes it's better for grown-ups to be apart than together).

In terms of living arrangements, I was crystal clear of what I expect from him. I think we will give the 2 bedroom flat a go - on the strict proviso that it's for no more than 6 months while we see how 50:50 childcare goes, and that he does his fair share of the chores.

Sorry Overnow I think you're being very naive about the flat idea. Well done for the other stuff and holding your nerve, but please reconsider the shared living arrangements.

Do you really want no privacy at all?

Don't trust him to clean up/ leave your room alone/ not leave his dirty socks in the lounge / bring new shag back to your bed just for kicks.

Good luck with it, OverNow.

OP you're making one of the biggest mistakes of you life. Second only to marrying this man and believing his lies about the shit he got into at work.

You are not getting away from him in any shape or form. The only reason he is going for 50:50 is too keep hold of you and to punish you.

It's working very well for him, you'll now be sharing a flat with him.

Sorry but you should have left when you were intending to do so. He ran that meeting totally.

He had you well and truly over a barrel in that meeting, he certainly knows how to push all your buttons because he is a master manipulator. You will also likely continue to cave in his presence.

If he leaves his current job too how is he going to fund his own day to day life let alone pay maintenance for his children?. I can see him all too readily pleading poverty and looking at you with sad eyes.

You really do need to reconsider that living arrangement as well before you really do shoot yourself in the foot. A six months arrangement (which will likely be dragged out for far longer until you yourself wake up and realise that it was never a good idea in the first place) is simply six months more for him to keep on abusing you all.

You've done amazingly well, but I echo pp regards the shared living - it's extremely naive - we aren't talking about a reasonable man here, he is a proven manipulator. The tension levels when still sharing a house with my ex-h, who was never abusive and in fact is a really decent bloke, was unbearable. Absolutely horrendous, no healing can take place when you are sharing living space, and it's awful for the kids too - we often make the mistake that they don't notice as we do such a good job putting a front on......it's a fallacy. Please do give this serious consideration - I urge you to think again x

Could you get a written agreement with him that lays out the 'basics'? Just something 'informal' so there aren't any 'I didn't say that' moments?

Yes, we're getting my SHL to draft a basic written agreement.

You have every right to change your mind at any point, it just seems like he has at least another 6 months to manipulate you and the DCs.

If that's what you need to feel like you gave it a go, then try it.

But yy to needing your own space.

I wouldn't try that particular arrangement with someone I loved - the nightmare potential and lack of privacy is too obvious.

Don't be afraid to say "on reflection, no, we need to change this arrangement".

Also why are you saying there are faults on both sides? Why have you let him dictate that?

He is prepared to give up his job to do childcare? Alarm bells going off for me. You recognise there has been financial abuse throughout your marriage. What if he has no income at all? Then he's stay-at-home dad and he's got you over a barrel re the children and finances if you divorce.

Very risky arrangement.

(By which I mean, don't give fake specifics like that. Either say it's private or tell the truth.

What faults do you think he'll tell his family you have? And you've said yes it's both our fault?)

If you're going to get a written agreement (which I presume you will both sign) just bear in mind its main value is as a guideline for you to call "foul" rather than anything enforceable.

One thing I'd ask for is that it sets out in absolutely clear terms that come the end of the 6 months you are completely free to decide it's not working for you, this can be your own decision and does not require explanation or discussion, and for there to be a clear statement of what steps you'll be looking to take at that time. You want to be able to say in 6 months "you agreed exactly to this, it was there in writing".

(But I'm not fan at all of this weekly swapping "homes" plan.)

In your new joint flat, who gets to choose and pay for which furnishings, towels, cutlery, bedding, light bulbs etc? Who pays the electricity bill?

Who chooses the flat? How many viewings will you do together?

Who's going to wash the sheets and change them at the flat and the house? It's all that stuff and much more. You'll need something like Sheldon and Leonard's roommate agreement, but a million times worse.

My DH and his ex had a relatively amicable split and did a nesting arrangement when they first separated (the parents moved between the family home and a flat), however it didn't take long for all sorts of resentments and conflicts to kick in and for both DH and ex.

It also kept them tied together as a couple rather than as separate co-parents because they were having to liaise so closely on basic stuff like food shopping and what condition the house was left in, plus it's very hard to detach when you're each surrounded by the other person's possessions/presence even on your days "off".

If you already have a bad relationship I can practically guarantee that nesting will make it worse because you won't have the glue of your marriage (however bad it was) to give you the motivation to live within his environment.

On the other hand I was a lodger in a household where the LL had his DC on a week on week off basis, the minimal transitions worked really well for everyone.

Please think carefully about following your SHL's advice.

It really isn't going to work. Everything in that meeting is about him keeping hold of you and a fake family situation.

Remember he is the master liar and sees nothing wrong in lying!!!!

This will end badly. I realise you are still in the F.O.G.
SO... please listen to all the wise women here who are telling you this is simply going to give him more rope to hang you with...
Does he know 50/50 week on/week off, includes homework, sports, school meetings, dentist aptmts, cooking dinner, washing up afterwards, putting the laundry on, feeding the cat, putting out the bins, paying the milkman, changing the linen for the swop over & laundering his sheets & God knows whatever other tasks ...
Do you/He really believe he will do it ????
Ultimately you want to be shot of him. Why delay it ? Its NOT best for the kids, it's not best for you. The only person with a smug gloat is your OH.
I wouldn't give it 2 weeks before you discover this is a complete fiasco.

I will bet my ds lunch money that the H in this case will think nothing of leaving sheets he's shagged some woman on for the op to clear up...

Why? Why do you go to extraordinary lengths to appease him? He sets the bar at a ridiculous level... you do your best to accommodate him, just shy of selling out - but only just.

I do want to congratulate you, I really do (eg facing him down with all the emotional blackmail shit was a stroke of genius: well done!) but I feel crashing disappointment and despair you are entertaining the flat idea. Can't you see he's going to royally fuck you over in myriad ways, over and over. Why are you subjecting yourself to that? Genuine q