How could he - no forgiveness

[CuppaTeaAndAJammieDodger]

I had a terrible childhood, being on tenterhooks as to what mood my father was in and whether he would get angry with me and hit me black and blue, not to mention all the psychological and emotional abuse, and my mother constantly explaining it away and not protecting me in any way. Thing is he was/is a highly respected academic and I come from a very middle class family so nobody ever suspected, and EVERY SINGLE incident has always been explained away or trivialised, so I found myself blaming myself for making a mountain out of a molehill. My life has been dictated by my childhood experiences and I've been through a hell of a lot of counselling and antidepressants to get to where I am.

Anyway, I though my dad had mellowed in his old age and that my coping strategies had gotten me to a stage where we could spend reasonable amounts of time together without major issue. It did t even occur to me that he would turn on anyone other than me. Until tonight.

We (7 yo DD, DH and I) came up for a few days for 1/2 term, this evening DD was watching something on the iPad upstairs on my bed, I'd just left her to come down to see DH when dad went upstairs, saw DD on the iPad and told her to go downstairs for dinner. DD, I believe, did her usual "just 30 seconds to see this bit" (she's a pickle and often difficult to manage, there's no denying it - but no behaviour is excuse for his actions) and dad lost it ... I heard the shouting from downstairs and recognised the manevolant, out of control, tone coming from him. By the time I'd got out of my chair he'd pushed her 1/2 way down the stairs and had his hands around her throat (yes his HANDS around her THROAT). She was hysterical, I grabbed her and screamed at him to get his hands off my daughter, he eventually did when I dragged her off him and I took her away clinging to me, dad immediately went in to "dinners ready are you just going to let it go cold" mode whilst DH was trying to persuade him to just leave us be whilst I consoled DD and stopped myself from launching myself at him. When he realised I wasn't just going to submit and let him get away with it he stormed out of the house. Next thing we had the vicar from the local abbey knocking at the door as dad had walked in and said he was going to sleep on a bench all night (if so why did he feel the need to go in to the abbey and tell her that? Classic emotional blackmail ... I should be used to it), my mum said it's his house he can come home so I said we'd leave - which we did.

So here I am, lying in a hotel bed next to my (wonderful, supportive) DH with DD in the bed next to us (she's OK, although understandably thinks her grandfather "is a mean man").

I have considered going NC in the past but I've been so programmed to believe the party line of "ah it's just him, but what can you do, if it wasn't for you doing X he'd have never reacted like that" that I've always felt too guilty. But you lay a fucking finger on my child and that is it - he no longer exists as far as I'm concerned. He's lucky I didn't call the police.

There's no real reason for me posting here other than DD and DH are sound asleep and I am lying awake with everything going round and round my head. Just needed to vent really.

The important thing as far as i think is to show your daughter how to respond to this sort of treatment, and that is by reporting the abuse and never ever seeing that person again and not forgiving them.
You can get over it so it doesn't eat you up, it just fades into the background so that you can go, oh yeah that happened.
But that person is out of your life, so if she is ever in that situation as an adult she knows how to react, she isn't shown you forgive, you forget, you go back to them.

There is a thread on legal matters about grandparents rights. Someone posted about their violent ex-in laws getting access to their child. It seems some judges interpret the law differently to how it was written.

For this reason I think that you need to get this logged by the police. It is very very unlikely that they will get access but do you really want to have to go through a court case where they try? (They have money, only one grandchild and believe that they did nothing wrong - they are the sort to try.)

If you get him charged now then that can be used in the future just in case you need it.

God, yes, I bet your father wants another grandchild. Someone else to use to project his angry, abusive and controlling behaviour on for as long as possible. Your daughter will grow up soon and be able to defend herself, and what child will he be able to abuse then?

Very insightful post indeed Mathanxiety - although I'm somewhat upset by the suggestion that I willingly exposed DD to "D"F & M, knowing the consequences of doing such and damage it could cause her - up until this weekend there had never been the merest hint of my father's historical behaviour directed towards DD and I honestly believed he was only capable of hurting me - rather naively so as it turns out.

I have decided to call the NSPCC and speak to them tonight (rather hoarsely) when DD is in bed, this will of course result in a report to the police if they feel that it is in the best interests of DD to do so. I've spoken to DD about what might happen next and assured her that she has absolutely nothing to worry about. She asked me not to tell her dad as she "knows that he will get really angry and might try to do something to Grandpa" - I initially though she was worried about my dad getting hurt (?!) but actually she was worried about her dad. Really not sure what to do about that one, but I don't see how I can't tell him.

Mumoftwoyoungkids this is EXACTLY what they would try.

CuppaTea - I'm so sorry not only you've had to go through this, but your daughter has been exposed to it too. You're taking lots of proactive steps to protect both of you, and that's what you need to focus on right now. Calling NSPCC is a fantastic place to start. Speaking to a local abuse recovery group might really help; they don't just deal with domestic violence. They will be able to help you put safety barriers in place, and also address trauma for you both.

Op, have you had your daughter looked at by a doctor? Even if there are no marks on her, I think she needs a check over.

Cuppa I wouldn't hide it from her father, as that will open a whole new problem, but I would tell him calmly, backing it up by telling him that it is being reported to the NSPCC, the police, and reassuring him that your dd will not be having any more contact with your parents. Stress to him that he needs to focus on reassuring your dd and supporting her, rather than going off half-cocked causing more problems. If he has her best interests at heart, he will agree.

I agree with GingerIvy. It's a 'bad secret' and one that a child shouldn't have to keep. I know the idea for not telling her DF has come from your DD herself but she needs to understand these are grownup problems and it is not her responsibility to protect the grown ups in the situation. Tell her DF calmly as stated before and take the actions you have decided upon to protect her.

I think you should call your ex as soon as possible and tell him exactly what happened. If it was his father who attacked your daughter, you would want to know - in fact you would be incensed if he didn't tell you immediately. He could be a real help and support to you in this despite being divorced as, presumably, he views your dd in exactly the same way you do.

I find it interesting that your father attacked your daughter when she was in your bedroom. I suspect his violence was entirely centered on you when you were growing up (as in not violent to your mother) and was rooted in his belief that you were his property and he could do what he wanted with you. When he came across another small girl of his family he just slipped back into his old attitudes/violence. Must have been a bit of a shock to him when he realised this small girl had a mother who protected her and you weren't going to sit down and eat your dinner as you most likely did many times before after a beating. hence the dramatic flight to the vicar - he was in panic because he had been called on his violence for once and he actually never expected it to happen. No help but interesting all the same how these people work.

OP if I were you I would just drop my parents cold. I don't know if I would even bother explaining to them. I'd be as angry at my mother as my father. And I certainly wouldn't protect them from my ex husband's anger.

Well done for protecting your daughter.

She needs to see a doctor. This is the most urgent priority.

You need to report to the police. If your daughter speaks about this to friends or at school, the adult responsible for child protection will be obliged to follow it up.

It's understandable that you are wary of involving the authorities, given past experiences. Things are different now.

I know someone who had a similar situation with their child - not a physical assault but emotional abuse of their ( much younger than your ) child by grandparents . Like you, they had assumed that their child was safe, that they would be good grandparents and had " learned from their mistakes " as parents .

The parents stopped all contact with the grandchild and the GP went into full revenge mode . They tried to approach the child outside school . Then when they were confronted by the head teacher , they told her a sob story about how their grandchild was being prevented from seeing them etc .

So the parents had to tell the school about the abuse ( without giving much detail ) and make sure that the child couldnt be removed by the GP. The GPs also tried the legal route, but it didn't come to anything .

One thing they didn't do was try to build bridges with the parents . Or apologise . Not that it would have worked but it's interesting that they didn't even try . Nor did they ever send a card or gift to the child .

I suspect they got more sympathy and attention from telling everyone about their ungrateful son and his evil wife who were stopping them seeing their precious grandchild .

On the phone to NSPCC now.

A similar thing happened to me with my SD, a few months ago with my 2 yr old DS. He shouted at him picked him and removed him from my house and wouldn't give him back, then laid into me in front of both my young DC's.
I have been NC since as in my opinion I have dealt with this stuff as a child and there is no chance in hell my children will be subjected to it.
I have never felt better, I too spent years wondering if NC was a good option and it took an incident like this for me to realise it NEEDED to happen.
I have had constant emotional black mail type messages from my DM, and have been told it was all my fault.
I have ignored everyone of them.
I think NC is the best thing I did. I would consider it if I were you.
By the way sorry this happened.

Well done for calling NSPCC.

I think it takes years and years to get it that childhood abuse wasnt our fault - even with extensive therapy. It was normalised, enabled. It takes a great deal to get that stain out, that we somehow deserved it.

I well remember the terror on DD's face when grandpa subjected her to the same brutality he had subjected me. So it wasn't me after all, it was HIM ALL THE WAY.

If you can tell her Dad that it's being dealt with by the police, he might feel positive that something is being done.

Also if it's not reported to the police, her father might report it anyway regardless of your decision on the matter.

Well done for speaking to the nspcc, you really need to consider the police, think how your daughter will feel if her dad takes it out of your hands.
I was attacked quite badly age 15 my dad was just "she's alright" my stepdad was physically withheld and locked in the house to stop him "dealing with it". Guess who I respect more as an adult.

I know, I am sorry to use the word exposure and I am sorry for the upset I caused you.

Sometimes I have brain freeze. What I was aiming at was to ask you to question whether you were being too reliant on your certainty (perhaps an unexamined certainty) that his behaviour was all about his relationship with you, which is something that happens in abusive situations. No matter how hard you try to reject it all and to rightly blame the abuser, there is often a part of you deep inside that doesn't realise this person would abuse any child he had unsupervised contact with, and you just happened to be there, wrong place, wrong time, wrong company. In other words, your abusers (F&M) are general purpose abusers, not 'abusers of Cuppa'.

As Springydaffs puts it, it wasn't me, it was HIM ALL THE WAY. The environment you were brought up in was one where nobody challenged the abuser, someone enabled the abuse, and of course children involved in an ongoing abusive situation feel they have a role in it. This feeling is very hard to dislodge.

I hope in your own journey towards freedom, the realisation that this was all him (and your mother) will hit home after this.

I agree 100% with Canyouforgiveher that you need to tell DD's father.

I also feel that 'dad is desperate for another grandchild to the point that he'd been putting pressure on me for some time and had offered to cover some of our IVF costs' bespeaks an attitude towards Cuppa (and her H) that is extremely off, and bespeaks an attitude where he sees Cuppa as a means to an end, available for his use. I don't think it's much of a leap to wonder if he would see a baby he partially paid for as his property and I take it as a given that he sees children related to him as his to treat exactly as he pleases -- like property, and answerable to nobody about his choices. The idea that you pressure your DD for a grandchild and are so desperate that she provide one, to the point where you help pay for IVF, is extremely problematic.

Thankyou Mathanxiety - what you say is really resonating with me, and I understand better what you mean about whether the abuse was a directed (towards me) or generalised. It doesn't take me much to get upset st the moment :)

I myself had worries about the ivf and his potential perceived "ownership" of the resulting child, but I think my own desire for a sibling for DD (and child myself) tried to dismiss these concerns. Obviously I can't do so any longer.

So unfortunately there were no counsellors available to speak to last night at the NSPCC but the call handler (and his boss) said that I could either try to speak to my father (which I said would be pointless) or call back today and they and I would discuss contacting the police and making a report, which is what I will do.

My mum did call yesterday - to tell me they were putting money in to my account to cover IVF costs so far - I said that it would be inappropriate to do so, she hung up pretty quickly after that ... didn't ask once about DD. Just unbelievable, there's no paying themselves out of this one.

In better news I've been speaking to my DBro who is livid with them, and very upset that DD was subjected to our father's violent streak. He's with me 100% and assuring me we'll stick together. I don't think he realises how bad it was for me as a kid as he wasn't always there when the physical stuff happened to me (he rarely hit DB...the more I think about it the more I suspect a mysoginistic element to all this) but he does know his propensity towards loosing control of his anger and mum's brushing it under the carpet very well (mum dismissed it even when he went for her at a family wedding in front of everyone ... although he managed to stop himself before he made contact with her face ... my Auntie went NC after that one). Anyway DBro is coming down at the weekend, just to be with us and support me which will be really good.

Lovely to see your DBro supporting you.

As far as the police go you have to do what you think is best for you and DD.

I hope you keep up the momentum, OP. Don't, please, get fobbed off. I really hope you do contact the Police - it sends a very clear message to DD that she will be beleived and protected, to your father that what he did was disgusting, to your mother that she should have protected you in a similar way, and yes - even to the bloody vicar that your father is a vile animal who beats children.

And then go NC with the lot of them - for ever.

I'm glad you have dbro on side. Was he at all the Golden Boy? Be careful of him minimising, if so.

Oh and - do not speak to you father! Stupid advice. This is not something that can be fixed by talking to him about it!

Cuppa please don't think I'm being a prophet of doom, but I think you need to prepare yourself for a personal emotional roller coaster. You may find that, by going through this again/reporting etc (which I 100% agree that you should do) you could find yourself thinking about things that have been long buried.

Obviously your priority is dd (which shows just what a fabulous mum you are) but please don't forget to look after yourself too

I'm seriously astounded that they suggested you talked to your father.
Did they say why?
I think I'd report that advice to higher instances.