At an impasse over finances and how to move forward

[Fraughtfinances]

Name changed for privacy. Trying not to drip feed and apologies if this is long.

Background: DP and I have been together 18 months. I have a teenage DD whose father is not involved and does not contribute financially at all (never has). DP has no children.

DP owns his own house (not outright - there's another 15 years on the mortgage). I own my house (23 years left on mortgage). I have slightly more equity in my place that he does.

DP moved in to my place earlier this year. He rented his place out and currently has tenants living there. His place essentially pays for itself (technically it makes a profit as DP will have a small tax bill to pay on it each year). The idea is to think about having a baby next year.

Prior to moving into mine, we had some work done on my house. This comprised structural work and a new kitchen. The work had been on the cards for later in the year, but DP is a keen cook and loathed existing kitchen, so paid for the work which ran to more than envisaged (c. £25k rather than the original estimate of £15k). My plan had been to remortgage later in the year and use the money to do the kitchen then. As it is, I'm in the process of re-mortgaging in order to pay DP back the £25k.

Foolishly, we didn't sit down and thrash out how financials would work between us when DP moved in. I'd previously had lodgers in the spare room to help with living costs. When DP moved in, we agreed no more lodgers as it would make the place feel cramped. I'd assumed, wrongly, that when DP moved in, we'd split the household bills 50:50.

In terms of overall financials, I earn £52k and DP earns around £85k. I have no savings and a small amount of debt (around £3000 on credit card). DP has significant savings, shares and no debt. My monthly outgoings (in direct debits/standing orders alone) are around £2500 (not including food or petrol). A significant amount (around £600 per month) goes on school fees (although DD has an assisted place). I have very little disposable income.

DP's outgoings are only what he contributes towards the household which is currently £475 per month plus some money towards food (which is still not agreed). DP wants to split the food bill three ways as doesn't feel he should contribute towards the food costs of DD. He doesn't contribute towards the mortgage as feels that if he did, he would want a share of the property. I don't want to put him on deeds, as he already has a property which is being paid for by his tenants.

We've been arguing over this for the past few months and still have no resolution. I feel that he is profiting from the relationship (essentially he can save in excess of £4k per month, whereas I have about £100 per month disposable income and no hope of saving). I have lost my claim to child benefit since he moved in (although it would have been reduced partially owing to my salary). He feels I want to use him to subsidise my lifestyle and use him as a gravy train. He also feels I am emotionally blackmailing him by saying how it upsets me that he won't contribute towards DD's food costs.

I would really like some recognition that we're living as a family and that we share some of the burden (and I have no expectation that DP should pay towards things like school fees, school uniform or anything like that). Even if it was a gesture along the lines that DP would pay for meals out (if we go out for dinner or to the cinema) or holidays. Instead, I feel criticised for the choices I've made and the lifestyle I've lead. DP is fundamentally a saver; I am not. I accept that. I accept too, that I've put things on a credit card and paid if off later, rather than saved for it beforehand. I have an excellent credit score (have never defaulted on anything) but do have a lot of stress about finances and lack of money. DP has never once worried about money.

We spent all of yesterday arguing - the issue continues to crop up again and again when I am down to my last few pounds and worrying how to economise before payday, and DP is angry that I'm in the situation. At the moment, I have around £300 to cover food/petrol/going out/school uniform until the end of the month.

I was awake for hours in the night, as was DP, just getting more and more upset and stressed. I feel utterly drained. I don't know how to resolve this. My friends think DP is being unreasonable. His friends think I'm selfish and grasping. I'm trying to arrange to see a counsellor so that we can talk things through in a neutral environment. I just can't see how we move forward without one resenting the other. Nor do I know how on earth we'd manage finances if we have a baby.

Any comments or suggestions most welcome.

As others have obviously said, you seem like an intelligent woman. You’ve managed to buy a home, develop a career and put a child through private school- in fact you’ve managed to raise a child with enough sense and wit to get a bursary for same. All without the financial or emotional support of a partner. That takes some grit and determination. So why on earth you’re letting someone treat you like this is beyond me.

You say that you have different attitudes to money and that he’s a ‘saver’. Whilst I agree that he might be better described as a miser, you should also point out to him that he’s had the luxury of being able to save. Because it is a luxury; if you don’t have it spare at the end of the month then you can’t save it! He’s only had to worry about himself and now that things have changed he’s resisting the need to adapt.

It’s also interesting that you say that a) he has less equity in his property than you, and b) he doesn’t ‘do’ anything with the money he’s amassed. That suggests that he’s not saving per se, he simply doesn’t like spending money. It’s probably why he’s happy to have c.£80k sitting doing nothing in his CA rather than say, pay a chunk off his mortgage and save a shed load in interest. It sounds like he likes to know that that money is sitting there if he needs it and that checking his balance gives him a bit of a warm glow. He doesn’t like the idea of letting go of it, even if it will save him more in the long run. Remember this!

His approach towards your DD’s food is frankly, disgusting. She’s a child, she is a dependant on the household. Whilst I would agree with him resisting paying for things that could be seen as ‘luxuries’, I don’t think you can count food in the same bracket. It’ll only be a matter of time before he cottons on to and wonders why he’s paying for your DD’s share of the gas, electricity and water usage as well. And by not even considering paying for his ‘room’ out of what might be considered as ‘room and board’, he’s beggaring you and your daughter.

You seem to see this situation as a hurdle you need to get past, like everything will be fine once you sort out living costs. But his attitude will be something you battle with for the rest of your life. What happens when your DD wants driving lessons, to buy her first car, uni expenses or a wedding? Some or all of these will crop up, and your capacity to save has been greatly reduced by this man’s presence in your household.

And if you do have a child with this man, how are you going to redress the discrepancy between what you’re able to give your DD and what the new arrival will get in terms of help for starting out? I know he says, “well she’s got a dad”, but even he has to admit that the relationship between your daughter and her father is distant at best and he now has a wife and two children; there is never going to be a distribution of funds from that side of the family. So whilst I would never expect him to make an equal split in his assets, I do think he should try to even the playing field now so that you can do what you can savings-wise whilst you’re still earning.

I’m not going to be as harsh as others, I think he does care for you on some level. But his views on money (and women and money in particular) seem so entrenched and will effect so much of you and your DD’s life that I just don’t see how it’s worth it- he cares more about money and being compensated for his loss of personal space than your feelings. Adding a baby into the mix is going to fuck this situation up even more- I wouldn’t have one with him full stop, but please please don’t do it unless you marry him first. My own view is that you really want another baby, you want to do it with a partner and this is your last chance, so you’re prepared to look past more red flags than a parade in friggin Beijing than admit that he’s not right. I’d put it to him that he needs to pay 25% of the mortgage on top of bills as lodging, plus the same proportion of bills. That’s reasonable. If he doesn’t like it based on the numbers and facts presented then you’ve got to draw a line under this.

I hope he isn't a divorce lawyer - how unfortunate for his female clients having him supposedly fighting their corner.

he’s not saving per se, he simply doesn’t like spending money. It’s probably why he’s happy to have c.£80k sitting doing nothing in his CA rather than say, pay a chunk off his mortgage and save a shed load in interest. It sounds like he likes to know that that money is sitting there if he needs it and that checking his balance gives him a bit of a warm glow. He doesn’t like the idea of letting go of it, even if it will save him more in the long run. Remember this!

This is one of the smartest things I've read here for ages!

I think the OP should certainly pay back the £25k and get something in writing that that is everyone's intention from the outset.

As lawyers, both parties will know that paying for significant home improvements, such as kitchen remodeling, is one of the ways you can get a claim on a partners home. Whereas if he had spent £25k on rent, bills, wallpaper, holidays etc he would have no claim against the house.

This man will know this for sure (though I have to assume the OP will know this as well) and I think its a dangerous position for the OP to be in financially speaking.

If your dd goes to uni the amount of loan she is allowed to get is calculated on household income. So because your 'partner' earns a lot your dd will only be allowedvthe minimum amount. As parents you are expected to contribute. He is not going to like that one bit given that he resents feeding her while she is still a child.

I've tried explaining this to DP. He says it's irrelevant. He doesn't agree with the rules or how the government sees it

Seriously?

This should have been the point at which you told him to fuck off.

OP, I think you need to think through why it was not. Do you feel your clock is ticking and he might be your last chance? Do you have low expectations of men following your experience of your ex? Do you have low confidence? He's a really awful man.

His attitude is appalling, to you and your daughter. He has no idea what a family is, and insofar as he has, he doesn't want to be in one. You cannot create a new family with someone who does not see your daughter as part of the package.

He's accusing you of wanting a gravy train while costing you money.

He's coming within a hair's breadth of financial abuse - one aspect of which is a refusal to contribute either fully or in part to normal household expenditure.

Are you aware that you are running high risk of being a single mum of two by trying for baby with this man? And he won't even bother paying maintenance for his own child in fear of subsidizing your lifestyle.

It is ridiculous and very mean of this man to think that OP should pay two thirds of food because she has a child.

MeganBacon has a sensible suggestion when she says that he should be paying half of the rental value of the house, regardless of the mortgage payments. He is renting out his property at current market rates, so it is reasonable that he would pay half the rental value of the house that he is sharing. Other expenses should be shared proportionally to income, so he would pay more than half.

With a joint salary of £130k and 2 houses, you should both be living quite a nice life. How dare he quibble about paying for food for your DD! He makes it sound like he's working 80 hours a week down a mine and you are both spending your time on spa days.

Agree with the person who said that if you need counselling this early on, it's not really meant to be. He's a freeloading miser who is living practically rent free in your house. He must be savings thousands every month whilst you are struggling. And you shouldn't be struggling on your salary. I earn a lot less than you, am a SP to 3 DCs and whilst I don't have money to spend willy-nilly, I don't 'struggle'

Tell him to fuck off and he can sing for his £25k as well. Arse.

Thanks for opinions. Please keep them coming. In a way it's reassuring that I'm not going mad. DP gets so frustrated if I don't have money left over at the end of the month, but I don't know how I'm supposed to have any left over given my outgoings. I don't want to go on his deeds. I don't want to freeload. I just want some fairness.

I don't expect DP to contribute towards DD's fees, her uniform, her phone, her trips out. I don't expect DP to contribute towards my mobile, my car repayments, my petrol, my pet insurance.

But I just can't live like this. I don't want to quibble over the heating bill when he says his was less, because he wore more jumpers and closed doors. I don't want to argue over his contribution towards Virgin, because DD watches more channels than he would and uses the internet more for watching Netflix. I don't want to be nervous if DD leaves food after a meal, because she's had enough (DP hates any kind of food waste). I don't want to walk on eggshells.

There's nothing so unattractive as a tight bloke.How much does your DD eat FFS? I've never heard such nonsense.He sounds like the kind of bloke that my dad would describe as being able to peel an orange when still in his pocket.Don't have a baby with him please.

Not a lot of fun times and joie de Vivre in this set up

But I just can't live like this. I don't want to quibble over the heating bill when he says his was less, because he wore more jumpers and closed doors. I don't want to argue over his contribution towards Virgin, because DD watches more channels than he would and uses the internet more for watching Netflix. I don't want to be nervous if DD leaves food after a meal, because she's had enough (DP hates any kind of food waste). I don't want to walk on eggshells.

Don't then. Just chuck him out. Tight git.

DD eats quite a bit. She snacks. She's growing. She's already 5ft 8. She does like to buy some junk food (not always - she eats healthily too). DP is shocked if DD goes to the shop and buys snacks (we had a row over a pot of ready-prepared mango that DP said was an extravagance).

DP thinks I shouldn't buy things like Diet Coke and should drink water. That was normal in their household when he was growing up. I grew up with a totally opposite attitude. My parents didn't worry about money (they had enough, they weren't in debt, they certainly didn't begrudge me treats, meals out or toys).

My mother has helped me out financially since I had DD. She has cleared debt for me, she has paid towards DD's activities and she provided the deposit for my house. She now has dementia and I am trying to save as much money of hers as possible, to pay for her care. DP has never asked his parents for money (though they may have paid the deposit for his house, I'm not sure) and has always lived frugally.

this is a match made in hell. Move on.

he feels that he's in a far worse position because he's lost his space and freedom

It must be hard to live with someone who feels like this.

I don't want to quibble over the heating bill when he says his was less, because he wore more jumpers and closed doors.

Surely you are having us on with that one?

He is a miser, and unless someone can explain this to him in a was that he gets it, you will be miserable with him, OP.

I don't want to quibble over the heating bill when he says his was less, because he wore more jumpers and closed doors. I don't want to argue over his contribution towards Virgin, because DD watches more channels than he would and uses the internet more for watching Netflix. I don't want to be nervous if DD leaves food after a meal, because she's had enough (DP hates any kind of food waste). I don't want to walk on eggshells.

???*!!! Run VERY FAST.

If you don't you and your dd will end up nervous wrecks. He's a control freak and only a whisper away from being abusive...

He's frustrated that you don't have money over at the end of the month??

Do you point out that you've taken an income cut from lodgers and benefits that he has not compensated you for?? That he is effectively costing you money?

If he's that concerned he should pay his way.

Not forgetting the poncy bloody kitchen.

He is paying more than the lodger would have paid (just about - taking into account I lose child benefit). Overall, my food bill is less. In that sense, therefore, I am better off.

I don't want to argue over his contribution towards Virgin, because DD watches more channels than he would and uses the internet more for watching Netflix

Dear god. I hope your DD is unaware of all this (I'm sure she is) but how mortifying. And suffocating. I honestly think LovelyFriend's electricity scenario could happen - or you're forced to bargain for the water bill when baby is ill and there's more laundry to do. Just don't go there.

we had a row over a pot of ready-prepared mango that DP said was an extravagance

Fraught, I've been reading your thread today and for some reason, the quote above is the one that struck me hardest as it's so very petty. My DH and I went through a patch of rowing over the silliest things until the day when I said to him "We are going to be together for a very long time. Really, is this conversation a constructive use of our time. What is it adding to our relationship?" We'd fallen into the pattern of it a bit.

We are also financially very different - he sees me as wasteful. I see him as tight. Other than the mortgage, we have no debt, and we do have savings.

I certainly wouldn't be having a baby with this man. Remortgage, pay him back the money, and then have a real conversation about your future.

Also, what kind of relationship are you role modelling for your DD?

Fraughtfinances 'she's growing' That is no excuse not to help support the child of the woman you are meant to love. He hasn't just moved in with you. You and DD are a package. You cannot separate those two parts.

Also, who gives a toss if that's what he did growing up. You are now a couple and bits of each of your lives will have to be accepted by the other. I bet you have made all kinds of accommodations for him but has he for you?

About 4 years ago I dated a man who would complain if he ever had to pay for anything (I was admittedly earning about a 1/3 more than him but had a toddler to clothe and feed) He would moan if I said to split the shopping bill in two and would insist I removed nappies from the basket! He had no problem with me paying for half his razor blades at £10 a pop though. Needless to say that fizzled out in less than 6 months. I believe in sharing bills equally. Its fair and its right.

Yes, the numbers are smaller but its about respect. He does not respect you and clearly thinks of your DD as an inconvenience. Do you really want her to spend her teenage years, when all the big issues around self esteem, body issues etc are at the forefront with a man who cannot refuses to help meet her basic needs?

This isn't about your finances, which he is clearly trying to take control of and screw you over royally, this is about his attitude to your family. You and your daughter. He doesn't care about you. If he did he would see the sacrifices you are making just for him but he doesn't.

Pay him back the money for the home improvements. Ask him to move out. Don't let him moan he has tenants and they are signed up to a long lease etc. he can afford to rent elsewhere. Make him.

You do not need this man in your life. If you roll over and agree to this he will think he can get away with anything.

OP, he is not a lodger, he is sharing the house with you. Is he paying the equivalent of half the market rent on such a house?

There are so many things that you have mentioned that are very unusual and are red flags.

he would willingly move back to his to enable me to save money and clear debt.

In that case, he'd better give notice to his tenants. Sorry, OP, but things are likely to get worse, unless he can have counselling to get over his miserliness.

At least you knew where you stood with the lodger and the lodger didn't complain about the lack of facilities and coerce you into a 25k renovation.

I'd re-advertise the room frankly. If he complains then I'd just shrug and say, "well something's got to change", and let that sink in for a few minutes. If you want to challenge this you've got to let him know you're serious about not taking his shite. So long as he's so partisan about "mine and yours" then the house is yours and you'll run it the way you want and in the way that is most cost effective to you.

He's paying just about more than a lodger?

Just about more than a lodger and yet you're supposedly forming a family with this man???

Give him lodger's rights, ie no say over what your DD eats - is he trying to give her an eating disorder?? Nor what internet provider you use etc.

Forget it - just chuck him out.