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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

At an impasse over finances and how to move forward

670 replies

Fraughtfinances · 10/08/2015 10:23

Name changed for privacy. Trying not to drip feed and apologies if this is long.

Background: DP and I have been together 18 months. I have a teenage DD whose father is not involved and does not contribute financially at all (never has). DP has no children.

DP owns his own house (not outright - there's another 15 years on the mortgage). I own my house (23 years left on mortgage). I have slightly more equity in my place that he does.

DP moved in to my place earlier this year. He rented his place out and currently has tenants living there. His place essentially pays for itself (technically it makes a profit as DP will have a small tax bill to pay on it each year). The idea is to think about having a baby next year.

Prior to moving into mine, we had some work done on my house. This comprised structural work and a new kitchen. The work had been on the cards for later in the year, but DP is a keen cook and loathed existing kitchen, so paid for the work which ran to more than envisaged (c. £25k rather than the original estimate of £15k). My plan had been to remortgage later in the year and use the money to do the kitchen then. As it is, I'm in the process of re-mortgaging in order to pay DP back the £25k.

Foolishly, we didn't sit down and thrash out how financials would work between us when DP moved in. I'd previously had lodgers in the spare room to help with living costs. When DP moved in, we agreed no more lodgers as it would make the place feel cramped. I'd assumed, wrongly, that when DP moved in, we'd split the household bills 50:50.

In terms of overall financials, I earn £52k and DP earns around £85k. I have no savings and a small amount of debt (around £3000 on credit card). DP has significant savings, shares and no debt. My monthly outgoings (in direct debits/standing orders alone) are around £2500 (not including food or petrol). A significant amount (around £600 per month) goes on school fees (although DD has an assisted place). I have very little disposable income.

DP's outgoings are only what he contributes towards the household which is currently £475 per month plus some money towards food (which is still not agreed). DP wants to split the food bill three ways as doesn't feel he should contribute towards the food costs of DD. He doesn't contribute towards the mortgage as feels that if he did, he would want a share of the property. I don't want to put him on deeds, as he already has a property which is being paid for by his tenants.

We've been arguing over this for the past few months and still have no resolution. I feel that he is profiting from the relationship (essentially he can save in excess of £4k per month, whereas I have about £100 per month disposable income and no hope of saving). I have lost my claim to child benefit since he moved in (although it would have been reduced partially owing to my salary). He feels I want to use him to subsidise my lifestyle and use him as a gravy train. He also feels I am emotionally blackmailing him by saying how it upsets me that he won't contribute towards DD's food costs.

I would really like some recognition that we're living as a family and that we share some of the burden (and I have no expectation that DP should pay towards things like school fees, school uniform or anything like that). Even if it was a gesture along the lines that DP would pay for meals out (if we go out for dinner or to the cinema) or holidays. Instead, I feel criticised for the choices I've made and the lifestyle I've lead. DP is fundamentally a saver; I am not. I accept that. I accept too, that I've put things on a credit card and paid if off later, rather than saved for it beforehand. I have an excellent credit score (have never defaulted on anything) but do have a lot of stress about finances and lack of money. DP has never once worried about money.

We spent all of yesterday arguing - the issue continues to crop up again and again when I am down to my last few pounds and worrying how to economise before payday, and DP is angry that I'm in the situation. At the moment, I have around £300 to cover food/petrol/going out/school uniform until the end of the month.

I was awake for hours in the night, as was DP, just getting more and more upset and stressed. I feel utterly drained. I don't know how to resolve this. My friends think DP is being unreasonable. His friends think I'm selfish and grasping. I'm trying to arrange to see a counsellor so that we can talk things through in a neutral environment. I just can't see how we move forward without one resenting the other. Nor do I know how on earth we'd manage finances if we have a baby.

Any comments or suggestions most welcome.

OP posts:
Alibabsandthe40Musketeers · 12/08/2015 12:37

I'm sure he is upset. Because he's thinking 'shit I think she might be onto me - my cosy plan of working part time and having this woman carry my babies and financially support me is about to go tits up'.

That sensation you have, of going mad, is because you are still believing he is a good guy against all the evidence presented to you. Your wishes are at odds with your senses and your instincts.
I'm really wary about the counselling, it can be awful for couples where there is abuse of some kind, because the controlling person - in this case your P - will have the counsellor lapping up every word and he will use it to further persuade you that you are wrong.

Please think about telling him to move out for a while. Where he goes isn't your problem, surely he isn't expecting you to 'subsidise' him?

sofato5miles · 12/08/2015 12:38

You have to stop living together. This is not working for either of you.

averythinline · 12/08/2015 12:43

what do you think he would say if you asked him to move out? go back to where you were in a relationship but not living together?..
....it does work for some couples and I can understand that if he's had years of living on his own terms then it can be hard to adjust.. then you can just go back to dating behaviour/holidays/meals out etc when you can afford/want to - get a lodger back, work out an equitable way of repaying the kitchen money

(personally I would told him to sling his hook at either the mango incident or when he moaned about his life being diminished by being with you and dd but you seem to want to continue the relationship)

I really feel for you daughter this must be so oppressive for her and if she's got GCSEs coming up then maybe review after she's completed those? its only 2 years, as they are a stressful enough time especially the final year....

You also haven't really explained the motivation for having another baby either...is that for him or you or you n dd? - your dd is 14 I'm assuming she's planning uni or the like after A levels..and you really want to start again? with the dependency/more school fees/impact on your dd you'll be supporting dd at uni by then or would the 2nd child not get private school if its not good value !

....my ds is an only and much as I would have wanted another child it was not to be and now he's 10 I am really enjoying doing stuff with him but can also see that in 10years time, I'll be having a completely adult life again! - with school fees/uni support done with

but I think as someone suggested up thread that you may want to think about counselling for yourself as well as the counselling your planning to do as a couple to work out really what it is you want and help you find a way to get it that doesn't involve this egg shell feeling because thats no way to live...

WhereAreMyDragons · 12/08/2015 12:52

Your poor daughter must be aware of the undercurrent in the house where he's watching what she's eating, what she's leaving, what snacks she buys.
I don't doubt that you have feelings for this man, but really, put yourself and your daughter first and pack his bags. It certainly sounds as though you, as well as she, will breathe a sigh of relief not to have constant tension around.

expatinscotland · 12/08/2015 12:58

Jesus wept. Get rid of this bloke. Your daughter comes first. Have a baby with a sperm donor if you want one so badly, but your first duty is to the child you already have, not to your biological clock or this selfish git of a bloke.

Strawberryfield12 · 12/08/2015 12:58

FF, the life of two loving people is supposed to bring joy and happiness and no way so much arguing and tears as you are having. When it is the right person by your side you feel you can be yourself, you don't have to pretend being somebody else or try to constantly compromise. Before meeting my DH I thought I would never be in a long term relationship as it always felt more of a burden, I was even considering that I might not be cut for relationships as mine never lasted for longer than few months. Then came along the right person and, hey presto, everything seems so easy and natural. We are together more than 10 years now.

expatinscotland · 12/08/2015 13:02

You sound like you are hanging onto this man to have a man and to have another baby. You need to get some counselling for yourself because this is a surefire way to damage your daughter who is already here, to show her by example to put a man first always at the expense of everything else.

tribpot · 12/08/2015 13:03

I asked DP how his finances had changes since moving in with me - what he used to pay at his old place, and what he has to pay now. He said he had no idea and that it was irrelevant to the discussion.

Er, so what (in his opinion) is relevant to the discussion? It seems to be:

  • you waste money on mango
  • you waste money on private education
  • [taken to the extreme] you waste money because you have a child (and also because her father doesn't pay anything towards her upkeep - not sure how that's your choice).

You must therefore:

  • drink water
  • go scrumping for apples
  • wear a lot of jumpers
  • pay an itemised bill for every cost incurred by you and your dd in your own house.

It seems as if you must also adhere to a budget which he will set out (I note he actually hasn't done so? And doesn't seem to have had one at his old place as he couldn't produce it when you asked him what his outgoing were). But most importantly of all, you must never forget the immense sacrifice he has made in giving up his three bedroom flat (at a profit) in order to slum it with you and dd in your house. You must be beholden to him as a result of that forever.

Oliversmumsarmy · 12/08/2015 13:04

If the bottom line is so irrelevant why is he bothered about what you spend your money on.

Why does he feel you are a gold digger, why does he make out to his friends you are only out for his money if money is so irrelevant.

Not that I believe him but if his finances are so irrelevant that he doesn't know how much money he is making/losing living with you, how if you broke up would he work out whether he should be feeling angry or not if he had no idea if he had been taken financial advantage of.

He used the word irrelevant when you were pointing out to him the governments stance on live in partners paying towards the resident child/children because he doesn't believe in it. I don't believe in parking meters but if I want to park I have to pay.

SweetAndFullOfGrace · 12/08/2015 13:25

So when you say to him that the bottom line is relevant for you, how does he respond? Does he care what you think and how you feel in this? Because if he doesn't care what you think and won't compromise then that is a far larger issue than the minutiae of the actual finances.

TheFullMinty · 12/08/2015 13:31

Oh gosh, having just seen a good friend in the same scenario I would urge you to please please make him move back to his own place. This cant be sorted whilst he is laying down the eggshells for you to walk on in your own home.

Put your daughter first and work on this once you are both in different houses.

You may find your desire to work on it diminishes once you are no longer nervous of coming home though. Which from the sounds of it would be no bad thing.

venetiaswirl · 12/08/2015 14:24

Something I've realised having started this thread is that I'm fearful of setting DP off or causing angst. I worry about going home in the evening. Often everything is perfect, but I hate the atmosphere when it isn't.

Dear FF - this ^^^

Perhaps it may be helpful for you to have some counselling for yourself without him? Why is it that you are so desperate to make this relationship work with a man who is contemptuous of what makes up family relationships? He has a rigid and uncaring view of life and living. Most of your posts seem to highlight how you are trying to manage / accommodate / soothe this man whose values are diametrically opposed to your own.
I think you are getting such a strong response from posters because we recognise that trait that so many women have: trying to make a toxic relationship work through fear of being alone?? Many of us have been there and come out the other side. It's a bit of a journey to understand why we do this - I certainly did it with a grade one prat Blush.
Maybe seeking an insight into your own needs and why you are tolerating this rather selfish and thoughtless man would be helpful??

BathtimeFunkster · 12/08/2015 14:39

He, though, does not and will not see it like this. There's some kind of block.

The block is called wilful blindness.

You are a litigator - why are you unable to call him out on his shifting positions and logical contradictions?

He is running rings around you here.

It's ridiculous.

magoria · 12/08/2015 14:45

So he doesn't have a clue how living with you is affecting him but he is taking a financial hit because you are spending so much of his money.

What a load of bullshit. Complete and utter bollocks that someone this obsessed with his savings wouldn't know.

Also it is completely irrelevant but your DD spending a few £ isn't.

Can you not see what a complete set of double standards hyprocitical attitude he has towards your relationship?

He has to be spinning you a line. Can you not see this?

Or is it that you don't want to because it means you are having to look deeper at your relationship.

Cloudhowe63 · 12/08/2015 14:45

No. He does not get to decide what is relevant in a discussion. If it is important to you as his partner, it is relevant. Who made him the boss?
He is shutting you down and controlling you. This does not bode well. There is a lack of flexibility on his side which means you will have plenty of practice walking on those eggshells.

BathtimeFunkster · 12/08/2015 14:48

As will your teenage daughter.

Cloudhowe63 · 12/08/2015 14:50

Is defending himself against the vagaries and 'what ifs' of the future more important to him than creating an open, loving and fair future with you?

What is his relationship history? It is relevant.

Inertia · 12/08/2015 14:54

To a certain extent, the financial issues appear to be a manifestation of something deeper which becomes more apparent the more you post.

"It's irrelevant" - he doesn't want to discuss it, either because he wants to keep his finances secret or he knows fill well that it will reveal the extent of his sponging.

The 'block' - of course he gets it, he is an intelligent man. He just doesn't want to acknowledge that he is in the wrong.

The fact that you are unable to resolve issues without arguing is an enormous problem - even if you sort this out, there will be other problems and differences.

This man just seems to be sucking all the joy from your life.

FanOfHermione · 12/08/2015 14:54

Fraught either he does care about you and how you feel or he doesn't.
If he does he will be able to list what you have lost in the process of him moving in with you just as he is able to list what he has lost in that process.

If he doesn't or says it's irrelevant, then he is in effect telling you he doesn't care about you. I mean, even DH, who has AS and is often struggling to put himself in someone else shoes, can do that.

At the moment, it's all about him, him, him. What he has lost, how much it cots him etc... What about you? what about your dd?

And I hope you have noticed that put on the spot to actually SAY how much more money he is making/saving with living with you, he doesn't want to tell you. I'm guessing because actually it's a lot of money, maybe even more than what you are thinking about? Or because he knows the arrangement is unfair but doesn't care if it means YOU are worst off? Why else would he not tell you? At worst you would have expected a 'I don't know but I can work this out now/tomorrow and tell you.

I agree with PP, go and have counselling ON YOUR OWN, tell him to move back to his house and that you first need to sort out this 'financial issue'.

Fraughtfinances · 12/08/2015 15:08

DP hasn't had any long-term relationships before. Longest before me was around 9 months. He's never lived with anyone before either.

OP posts:
Fraughtfinances · 12/08/2015 15:10

Having said that, it's not as if I have some kind of perfect relationship history either. I've only lived with one other person before (short-lived marriage to my ex-husband - not DD's father - which I ended for a number of reasons).

OP posts:
tribpot · 12/08/2015 15:15

DP hasn't had any long-term relationships before.

Imagine our surprise!

In fairness, his behaviour is typical of someone who has no experience of living with someone, but it doesn't sound like he is particularly willing to learn how to do it, how to compromise and what the up and downsides are.

He's had six months, though, and he doesn't seem remotely close to understanding how to make it work, particularly as a blended family.

As far as I can see it, you would be far happier living apart. This doesn't have to be the end of your relationship, although it would make sharing care of a future child complex (but I think his inflexibility makes him an unsuitable co-parent anyway). During your long conversations last night, was this suggestion raised?

TendonQueen · 12/08/2015 15:17

It doesn't half show! This is why you have to trust your own experience and perspective. You're believing that his is 'right', even given his inexperience in running a family household. Believe in yourself and your judgement.

Oliversmumsarmy · 12/08/2015 15:23

But you have lived with your dd for 15 years, you will have had to take account of her when doing anything, you have been financially and emotionally responsible for another person you have not been completely on your own and that makes a big difference.

Can I ask where he gets all this talk about women being gold diggers from? Given he has not had a live in gf or wife before so he hasn't really experienced this.

Can I hazard a guess that it could have come from his parents

Fraughtfinances · 12/08/2015 15:32

His parents are happily married, have been together for over forty years and have a joint account Confused. They are very frugal though.

OP posts: