At an impasse over finances and how to move forward

[Fraughtfinances]

Name changed for privacy. Trying not to drip feed and apologies if this is long.

Background: DP and I have been together 18 months. I have a teenage DD whose father is not involved and does not contribute financially at all (never has). DP has no children.

DP owns his own house (not outright - there's another 15 years on the mortgage). I own my house (23 years left on mortgage). I have slightly more equity in my place that he does.

DP moved in to my place earlier this year. He rented his place out and currently has tenants living there. His place essentially pays for itself (technically it makes a profit as DP will have a small tax bill to pay on it each year). The idea is to think about having a baby next year.

Prior to moving into mine, we had some work done on my house. This comprised structural work and a new kitchen. The work had been on the cards for later in the year, but DP is a keen cook and loathed existing kitchen, so paid for the work which ran to more than envisaged (c. £25k rather than the original estimate of £15k). My plan had been to remortgage later in the year and use the money to do the kitchen then. As it is, I'm in the process of re-mortgaging in order to pay DP back the £25k.

Foolishly, we didn't sit down and thrash out how financials would work between us when DP moved in. I'd previously had lodgers in the spare room to help with living costs. When DP moved in, we agreed no more lodgers as it would make the place feel cramped. I'd assumed, wrongly, that when DP moved in, we'd split the household bills 50:50.

In terms of overall financials, I earn £52k and DP earns around £85k. I have no savings and a small amount of debt (around £3000 on credit card). DP has significant savings, shares and no debt. My monthly outgoings (in direct debits/standing orders alone) are around £2500 (not including food or petrol). A significant amount (around £600 per month) goes on school fees (although DD has an assisted place). I have very little disposable income.

DP's outgoings are only what he contributes towards the household which is currently £475 per month plus some money towards food (which is still not agreed). DP wants to split the food bill three ways as doesn't feel he should contribute towards the food costs of DD. He doesn't contribute towards the mortgage as feels that if he did, he would want a share of the property. I don't want to put him on deeds, as he already has a property which is being paid for by his tenants.

We've been arguing over this for the past few months and still have no resolution. I feel that he is profiting from the relationship (essentially he can save in excess of £4k per month, whereas I have about £100 per month disposable income and no hope of saving). I have lost my claim to child benefit since he moved in (although it would have been reduced partially owing to my salary). He feels I want to use him to subsidise my lifestyle and use him as a gravy train. He also feels I am emotionally blackmailing him by saying how it upsets me that he won't contribute towards DD's food costs.

I would really like some recognition that we're living as a family and that we share some of the burden (and I have no expectation that DP should pay towards things like school fees, school uniform or anything like that). Even if it was a gesture along the lines that DP would pay for meals out (if we go out for dinner or to the cinema) or holidays. Instead, I feel criticised for the choices I've made and the lifestyle I've lead. DP is fundamentally a saver; I am not. I accept that. I accept too, that I've put things on a credit card and paid if off later, rather than saved for it beforehand. I have an excellent credit score (have never defaulted on anything) but do have a lot of stress about finances and lack of money. DP has never once worried about money.

We spent all of yesterday arguing - the issue continues to crop up again and again when I am down to my last few pounds and worrying how to economise before payday, and DP is angry that I'm in the situation. At the moment, I have around £300 to cover food/petrol/going out/school uniform until the end of the month.

I was awake for hours in the night, as was DP, just getting more and more upset and stressed. I feel utterly drained. I don't know how to resolve this. My friends think DP is being unreasonable. His friends think I'm selfish and grasping. I'm trying to arrange to see a counsellor so that we can talk things through in a neutral environment. I just can't see how we move forward without one resenting the other. Nor do I know how on earth we'd manage finances if we have a baby.

Any comments or suggestions most welcome.

I was reflecting on this thread last night.

I think the part that troubles me most is that it's coming across that the OP feels she isn't expressing herself correctly, if only she could find the right words, the persuasive argument, the killing closing summary, the DP would see how wrong he has been and instantly change his penny pinching ways.

Instead what will happen is that DP will appear to give way on some matters, but not alter his actual habits in any way.

If you want to have a conversation with him OP why don't you tot up the sums on your current outgoings and incoming finances, vs how they were before DP moved in, oh and then work it out once you've added on the remortage for the kitchen. Then do the same for his money. Then work out what would be a fair sum for him to contribute.

That's the behaviour you want to change and address, not some nebulous half promises about acknowledging his income when DD goes to university - what does that even mean.

You're clearing a very intelligent person OP, you're a single parent and a lawyer and have successfully managed your life thus far. Think about this from the logical side - what's the specific outcome you want to achieve from him and is it feasible. At the minute I do worry that you're so keen to make this work so you can have another baby, that you're deliberately ignoring huge red flags.

As I said before I don't think your DP is intentionally a bad guy and I think he loves you as much as it is possible for him to love someone. This does not mean that it is necessarily good enough for you to stay with him.

he feels that he's in a far worse position because he's lost his space and freedom. He says it's akin to living in a shared house and that how do you put a price on having to share a bathroom and not have enough storage for your clothes

this is what really gets me, if a partner of mine were to point out the ways in which his quality of life was diminished by living with me I would point out that he knows where the door is and he is free to leave.

he is trying to make out that he is doing you a favour and that you should compensate him.
Call his bluff and tell him to take a hike

He is one of those people who only sees things from his point of view. He's right. It doesn't matter what we or you or anyone else thinks. His view of things is the right one. So it's pointless going round in circles trying to make him see sense. he never ever will. He will have you tied up in knots with arguments about money for ever. And will make you question your own judgement. Get rid of him. I think he is a bad guy.

Good point rookie - what do I want to achieve? I suppose I want to be vindicated and for DP to suddenly have a "lightbulb" moment and understand my point and agree with it. In that way, I sort of hope that by going to counselling and talking about the situation in front of a third party, the third party may say something helpful which will allow DP to see things from my perspective and not feel like it's him who is giving and me taking.

I doubt the totting up would work. It wouldn't change his fundamental opinion that he is making all the financial sacrifices and I'm giving away nothing. And I don't know that he'd let me see his bank account details anyhow.

Something I've realised having started this thread is that I'm fearful of setting DP off or causing angst. I worry about going home in the evening. Often everything is perfect, but I hate the atmosphere when it isn't.

A litigator - nobody pulls the wool over your eyes, you're trained to spot this. In your work life. Book smarts do not equal street smarts, particularly when someone knows your weakness. With you, it seems to be the desire to make this work at any cost and your desire to have another child. He's got you right where he wants you.

OP, you've had great advice on his failures so it's time for you to become one of his grand purchases. Put yourself on the pedestal you deserve to be on and play hard to get. Kick him out, let him fend for himself, let him prove to you that he's changed (if he doesn't then you've lost nothing anyway because this is no life - my aunt has just divorced the meanest man in the world and she was driven genuinely mad by him - she is a shell now). Money isn't just one aspect of a relationship, it is far bigger than that. Financial incompatibility will hurt you badly in the end. You're already talking about handing over control of your finances to him willingly so perhaps you're already going mad - acquiescence isn't going to change you and make you happy. Your DD deserves better too.

You've enough on your plate with work, raising your DD, making ends meet and so forth without falling down the rabbit hole every time he tries to persuade you to his way of thinking. That's the way to save this, not going to counselling where he'll just say what you want to hear and you'll get in even deeper.

Doesn't believe in the government policy... Is he a Freeman-on-the-Land??

How many times do how many people have to say it? This isn't going to work, your last post is so depressing, you don't want to 'set him off'. Honestly, my heart sank when I read that. He's a dickhead, get rid asap

I worry about going home in the evening. Often everything is perfect, but I hate the atmosphere when it isn't.

It only gets worse from here, OP. If you stay with him, you will live in fear, treading on eggshells.

Get him to move out (so that you can clear your debt); pay him back for the kitchen (as you intend - minus the correct rent); and enjoy your home, your DD, and snacks when you and DD want.

I want to be vindicated and for DP to suddenly have a "lightbulb" moment

Get counselling for yourself, OP, rather than joint counselling. It will help you to respond to him even in the absence of this lightbulb moment that you wish for.

Sooooo...i'm actually slightly on his side. He is paying the same as your lodger, plus is covering the lost child benefit. He maybe should contribute more towards utilities and food though. Would it be childish to set up a joint bank account with new cards specifically for utilities and all joint activities? my rationale would be tgat he should contribute more towards activities that you wouldn't have done without him.

I'm fearful of setting DP off or causing angst. I worry about going home in the evening

sounds like you are living in a constant state of very low level tension where there is always an argument in the air and so you are always focused on doing your job and keeping the peace.

I would suggest that one big payoff for him in living with you is he gets to control you by keeping up that constant low level of pressure.

Without him there you would relax and be able to see the bigger picture, ie that this set up is not in your best interests!

Get him to move out if you are tense about him being there. You don't have to split up yet (though I think you should!) but take it a step back for now so you can relax again at home.

I suppose I want to be vindicated and for DP to suddenly have a "lightbulb" moment and understand my point and agree with it. In that way, I sort of hope that by going to counselling and talking about the situation in front of a third party, the third party may say something helpful which will allow DP to see things from my perspective and not feel like it's him who is giving and me taking".

It will never happen. Someone like him will likely manipulate the counsellor (that person will not readily know that they are being manipulated either) and he'll probably sit there all sweetness and light making it all out to be you fault as well because you are so unreasonable.

I think you are very smart at your job but your emotional smarts here are very much wanting. If you want this to work at all costs you and your DD will simply be dragged down with him. He has latched onto you OP and I would also state that he targeted you to boot; he saw some emotional weaknesses in you that he could and has gone onto exploit.

No person should ever have to worry ever about going home in the evening. Life chez FF is not perfect at all, he has you quiet and keeping your head down so he does not kick off.

Again is this really what you want to teach your DD about relationships. What sort of relationship history is she going to have when older, what is she learning about relationships here?. She is learning amongst other things that her mother does not value herself.

Curioushorse, he is nota lodger: as the partner of OP he is sharing the house. That is different and the appropriate financial contribution for such an arrangement is different.

He is not covering all of the lost child benefit, and he is quibbling about whether he should pay for half of the heating because he wears more jumpers than OP and closes doors. He is quibbling about covering half of the food bill because OP's DD is eating extra snacks that he considers are a waste of money. He is quibbling about paying half of the television subscription because OP's DD watches more channels than he does.

All this when he earns a good salary that is 50% higher than OP's.

It might be that he is just clueless about money (he has a large deposit in his current account but doesn't pay off part of his mortgage or invest in an ISA regularly), but he is also coming across as a bit mean.

my aunt has just divorced the meanest man in the world and she was driven genuinely mad by him - she is a shell now

that sounds horrible Lazycoo :(

he has a large deposit in his current account but doesn't pay off part of his mortgage or invest in an ISA regularly
isnt that just really really weird?
why isnt he angry about the money that he is losing by not paying down his mortgage?

Something I've realised having started this thread is that I'm fearful of setting DP off or causing angst. I worry about going home in the evening

Well, that sounds worse than the loss of wardrobe space that he finds to be a major hardship about sharing a house.

I just don't think he's suited to living with other people, OP. I think you would both enjoy this relationship a great deal more if you lived apart.

This just gets worse and worse ................. 99% of us on this thread are trying to tell you that this is not a good relationship - there is no mutual trust and respect, no kindness ......... and a terrible example for your daughter of what a meaningful relationship should be.

He's never going to have a 'lightbulb' moment .......... he is a skilled, hard hearted, financially astute (mean), clever Lawyer - he is hardly going to turn round and say 'sorry darling, I've been wrong all the time ......... ' is he?

Where is your self esteem? As so many of us have said over and over again, you are well educated, professionally employed, have your own home, privately educate your DD who you have raised on your own - what on earth do you need this dick head in your life ??? !!!

isnt that just really really weird? Yes, I think so too. It is certainly financially foolish, as well as inconsistent with worrying about the cost of the DD's dried mango snack.

I think the worst thing for OP is that he resents the fact that he has sacrificed his space by sharing with her.

his approach to money seems to be 'do as I say not as I do'!

Has he really enumerated the way his life is worse since he moved in with you? And you don't have a problem with this?

whilst financially he may be better off living with us, other things need to be taken into account too (e.g. less space, different lifestyle).

So in other words, one of the "benefits" of the relationship to him is that he saves money on outgoings; and one of the "costs" is that he has to put up with less space and a different lifestyle?

It is fine to consider the costs and benefits of a relationship and fine to attach financial values to them. But seeing "different lifestyle" as a cost is not right.

A good man would seen "different lifestyle" (ie, living as part of a family) as a benefit and would be willing to contribute a fair (in this case, higher) share to the outgoings.

see, not seen.

OP your DP's theory about what spending is worth while and which is waste comes very handy to him while living with you. So all the daily little things costing money he has declared waste although uses them if you have got them bought at home. The small items cost money but they are sort of invisible, they are difficult to identify and make any claims for them.

At the same time he spends money on big items, they are costly and obvious, so create impression that he is spending money while you are wasting. And from all the examples you mention you yourself don't really benefit as even for the purchase of the kitchen you signed letter of trust requiring you to pay back if you split up. Btw, does the letter takes in consideration amortisation over the years? Or in situation you will struggle through with him for 10 years before decide to split up, your kitchen will be well used by both of you and will by the time require updating, but you will be owing money for it to DP and plus will have to pay for a new one. And it will result that he has used your kitchen free of charge for 10 years?

So he installed really cool windows in his property before moving to your place. And what is your benefit from that one? He only seems to spend money on himself.

Absolutely agree with strawberry field - 10 years of kitchen use and a complete refund for the kitchen at the end sounds like a brilliant deal - for him.

suzannefollowmyvan yes it's so sad. My aunt didn't work though and hadn't done for years as a result of her first child being born with learning difficulties. The lack of financial autonomy didn't help but in some ways it doesn't matter as my uncle would have stripped her of whatever she made anyway as he was in control of all the finances.

The OP will continue to make her own money but whilst she is seen as servient to her DP, (because in his head she is a servient moneygrabber and deserves to be servient - her value is less because she earns less, plus she has no savings and is therefore 'bad'), the outcome will likely be the same as if she hadn't worked at all: the 'D'P will strip her of her confidence with money, then remove her right to administer her own money (something which she is already considering), and she will be diminished.