At an impasse over finances and how to move forward

[Fraughtfinances]

Name changed for privacy. Trying not to drip feed and apologies if this is long.

Background: DP and I have been together 18 months. I have a teenage DD whose father is not involved and does not contribute financially at all (never has). DP has no children.

DP owns his own house (not outright - there's another 15 years on the mortgage). I own my house (23 years left on mortgage). I have slightly more equity in my place that he does.

DP moved in to my place earlier this year. He rented his place out and currently has tenants living there. His place essentially pays for itself (technically it makes a profit as DP will have a small tax bill to pay on it each year). The idea is to think about having a baby next year.

Prior to moving into mine, we had some work done on my house. This comprised structural work and a new kitchen. The work had been on the cards for later in the year, but DP is a keen cook and loathed existing kitchen, so paid for the work which ran to more than envisaged (c. £25k rather than the original estimate of £15k). My plan had been to remortgage later in the year and use the money to do the kitchen then. As it is, I'm in the process of re-mortgaging in order to pay DP back the £25k.

Foolishly, we didn't sit down and thrash out how financials would work between us when DP moved in. I'd previously had lodgers in the spare room to help with living costs. When DP moved in, we agreed no more lodgers as it would make the place feel cramped. I'd assumed, wrongly, that when DP moved in, we'd split the household bills 50:50.

In terms of overall financials, I earn £52k and DP earns around £85k. I have no savings and a small amount of debt (around £3000 on credit card). DP has significant savings, shares and no debt. My monthly outgoings (in direct debits/standing orders alone) are around £2500 (not including food or petrol). A significant amount (around £600 per month) goes on school fees (although DD has an assisted place). I have very little disposable income.

DP's outgoings are only what he contributes towards the household which is currently £475 per month plus some money towards food (which is still not agreed). DP wants to split the food bill three ways as doesn't feel he should contribute towards the food costs of DD. He doesn't contribute towards the mortgage as feels that if he did, he would want a share of the property. I don't want to put him on deeds, as he already has a property which is being paid for by his tenants.

We've been arguing over this for the past few months and still have no resolution. I feel that he is profiting from the relationship (essentially he can save in excess of £4k per month, whereas I have about £100 per month disposable income and no hope of saving). I have lost my claim to child benefit since he moved in (although it would have been reduced partially owing to my salary). He feels I want to use him to subsidise my lifestyle and use him as a gravy train. He also feels I am emotionally blackmailing him by saying how it upsets me that he won't contribute towards DD's food costs.

I would really like some recognition that we're living as a family and that we share some of the burden (and I have no expectation that DP should pay towards things like school fees, school uniform or anything like that). Even if it was a gesture along the lines that DP would pay for meals out (if we go out for dinner or to the cinema) or holidays. Instead, I feel criticised for the choices I've made and the lifestyle I've lead. DP is fundamentally a saver; I am not. I accept that. I accept too, that I've put things on a credit card and paid if off later, rather than saved for it beforehand. I have an excellent credit score (have never defaulted on anything) but do have a lot of stress about finances and lack of money. DP has never once worried about money.

We spent all of yesterday arguing - the issue continues to crop up again and again when I am down to my last few pounds and worrying how to economise before payday, and DP is angry that I'm in the situation. At the moment, I have around £300 to cover food/petrol/going out/school uniform until the end of the month.

I was awake for hours in the night, as was DP, just getting more and more upset and stressed. I feel utterly drained. I don't know how to resolve this. My friends think DP is being unreasonable. His friends think I'm selfish and grasping. I'm trying to arrange to see a counsellor so that we can talk things through in a neutral environment. I just can't see how we move forward without one resenting the other. Nor do I know how on earth we'd manage finances if we have a baby.

Any comments or suggestions most welcome.

I bet those four windows don't bring as much transitory happiness as 5000 pots of mango!

And if he doesn't begrudge education spend why is he giving you a hard time about lack of money when £600 PCM is going on education.

And if he's a good cook, unless he's doing pasta and tomato sauce every time, he's obviously prepared to buy ingredients that are more than just the bare essentials. But in his mind, steak and courgettes and prawns (or whatever) are worthwhile expenses but mango and diet coke are not - almost certainly because he doesn't like them personally that much.

OP ... what if one of us swept into your life, and started to dictate where your money goes? I.E would you take this advise from a friend? Would you allow a friend to live off you, and you were wondering how to feed every one? But its ok because they spent x on a coat? I do wonder what you hope to get from this man? You justify his decisions, and question your own, when you were fine before, and looking forward to spare cash in a few years.

Education, a new kitchen, good quality clothing and shoes are all valuable and he is happy to spend money on them. He spent in excess of £10,000 replacing his windows at his house just before he moved to mine

But all of these can be bought at much cheaper prices. I actually think the more you tell us about him the more he appears to squander an awful lot of money and expects to make up for it by penny pinching.

I buy exactly the same things but at much lower prices. Eg. My kitchen is exactly the same kitchen that I was quoted £25k for. I just sourced direct from the manufacturer. Dh has a particular type of shirt he used to buy from m&s £40. I get them for him for £14 from a company on Ebay.

I would be the one telling him that he is not looking after his money. Why is he fearful of a money grabbing girlfriend when he appears to be giving his money away for free.

Bet I could have sourced and fitted those windows for half the price.

Fraughtfinances - value is subjective. He needs to understand that.

My OH doesn't see the 'value' in some things I do but he 100% understands that I do and that although they don't appear 'cost effective' they make me happy. That works both ways. Their is no monetary to his love of collecting geek things but they make him happy and that is worth much more.

Your DD indulging with cola/mango what ever every once in a while will make her happy (for want of a better word but you get the idea) above and beyond the actual monetary value.

Your DP needs to disentangle his odd perceptions of value around things and really get to grips with the emotional value of things.

He seems to be finding comfort and 'happiness' in a big old pile of cash and cannot see beyond it. The little things are what counts. You can still save, still be financially secure yet still splurge a little here and there on bloody cola and mango and whatever frivolous thing you desire.

As an example It seems to me he'd rather save £150 than spend it on a festival ticket where he'd make a ton of memories and have some awesome experiences. Whereas you would spend i.

Thats not a bad attitude to money and his isn't a good attitude to life.

He actually reminds me of a group I lived with at uni where because I was a woman and thus wiped more had to give more to the loo roll pot. No mention of stealing loo rolls for their self indulgent habits. It wasn't a fun year for me.

Did you ask specifically if he would be happy to contribute to her uni expenses? My ex would have happily said that he understood his salary would be taken into account, that wouldn't mean he would be happy to pay.

DPs view is that you can't look at money in isolation from everything else. That whilst financially he may be better off living with us, other things need to be taken into account too (e.g. less space, different lifestyle). He continues to look at money from a far more hypothetical manner.

This is just weird. Can completely see why he is a lawyer - it's a really odd argument. It isn't a hypothetical way of looking at money, it's a distracting irrelevant argument to keep him not having to contribute more to your joint household. Surely the cost/benefit should be that he is still better off even if he pays significantly more into joint expenses and the benefit of living with you is getting to have a lovely family life with the person he loves.

The way you describe how he spends money seems to reflect how I would imagine his parents spend money.

At last Raffles someone after my own heart. Why pay more for exactly the same thing.

In a way I think DP would be happier contributing thousands towards DD's uni fees than towards mango

But he's not happy contributing to either is he. He doesn't want to pay for dd full stop not even her food, particularly not sliced mango.

You've said that he judges your choice for sending her to that particular school (presumably because it's private), he even judges you for having her.

You may have forced a concession from him last night, but agreeing to something and wanting to do it are two completely different things. And I will be very surprised if he doesn't use this against you in future.

I agree with Oliversmum that the more detail you give the more indication that he's tight about some things and profligate with others. Most notably, he's happy to spend money on himself and things he will benefit from - windows, kitchen, expensive coats - but is very tight about spending money on other people - particularly dd. That pattern will not change.

Does he intend to pay you per shag ? as really that should be seen as a 'benefit' in the plus column againt the loss off space etc. Crude but the way he is looking at this in reality.

Fraught your l;ast description of his idea of how to deal with money is exactely what DH and I do. Sure I'm a bit more relaxed than he is and there are times when I just can't be bother but we both see 'having some food from M&S rather than taking your own' a real waste of money!

I don't think that's an issue at all. (and is a way of dealing with money shared by others) and imo a very appropriate way of dealing with things.

But that's completely different from what you explained further up.

Will he really be relaxed enough to be happy to see your dd eat some pre-packed mango wo twitching?
Will he really be happy to pay half wo looking at how much you or your dd are using x or y compare to him?

Re the 'having lost a lot by moving in with you' bit .... I would very clearly point out to him that both you and your dd have lost a lot too. Independence, having to take someone else into asccount, less spce in the huse etc etc. How is he going to evaluate that and compare it to 'his' loss and how to value that money wise???
Lastly I would also ask him how he would vlaue what he has gained by moving in (I'm assuming if he hadn't gained anything, he wouldn't be living with you) and therefore how can he evaluate that in monetary terms too.
Yes he is right that you need to look at the whole picture. The problem is that he actually isn't!

Goodness OP run for the hills, as a very minimum he should be splitting living costs with you, why should he live for free whilst your bills go up?
He is a cock lodger.
I hope you can see how destructive this is, especially as a role model for your daughter, she already has a father who has never paid towards her, what do you think you are teaching her about relationships with men?

I have to say, I also think that i can see some of DH in the Op's descrition of her DP.

Very tight in some areas but also happy to make really big expenses at the drop of the hat. That doesn't have to do anything with spending money on himself but rather is linked with a total lack of knowledge on how to handle money. The fact he has no idea on how to invest his money points towards that too.

OP, if you were to let your whole house to another family, what would the rent be? He should be paying you half of that, plus half of all bills, plus £60 extra to cover what you have lost in TC, etc.

If he paid that, how would your budget look?

That is the minimum that he should pay. As he earns more, he could contribute - say - 60% rather than 50%.

And no quibbles about who wears more jumpers in winter or who takes more showers!

I've just read the thread in one go, and what stands out from all your posts OP, is that he must be financially better off living with you.

He obviously feels that this is fair, because he had a better standard of living before he met you, and feels that his life should cost him less now because it isn't as good.

His absolute conviction that he should not be subsidising your chosen lifestyle is strange, because you are far better at managing money than he is. His financial choices are stupid and wasteful.

He may have many good qualities, but he has no basic common sense. He sounds like a deeply flawed person, whilst you sound normal, not sure how this could work. Has someone taken advantage of him financially before I wonder.

Of course, the many details we aren't privy to might shed a different light on everything, but that is always the case on MN.

he must be financially better off living with you.

He obviously feels that this is fair, because he had a better standard of living before he met you, and feels that his life should cost him less now because it isn't as good.

Yes, yes. This does stand out. But how can the OP live with someone who considers that involving her, and her DD, in his life, constitutes a reduction in standard of living . That is utterly awful.

I can sympathise as my dh is a bit this dp in terms of resenting paying for mango, and always takes a packed lunch to work even though he has a very good job. However, he does acknowledge his attitude is flawed and that I have a better, and more generous, attitude to money. He has changed.

The oddest thing to me is this sentence from OP:

I know it's odd, but he would willingly move back to his to enable me to save money and clear debt.

This means that he puts his money above his relationship with you. It also means that he doesn't particularly whether or not he lives with you and your DD. Why are you settling for this, OP?

If he stayed and shared the profit/paid his share you would clear debt. You want him more then he wants you.

It's easy to talk about money "hypothetically" when you have loads of it, isn't it? A bit harder when you have to budget to make ends meet.

Sallyhasleftthebuilding is right - if he paid his share more fairly, OP would clear the debt.

Very odd that he doesn't see that.

I know it's odd, but he would willingly move back to his to enable me to save money and clear debt

Or in other words he is costing you money so without him around you would be financially better off. If he puts money in first place and you and your dd a poor second and third then I think you need to seriously contemplate your future with this person.

Believe me when I say what ever his problems are now you can multiply them by 100 as he gets older. dh who I love dearly had little foibles which I might have found funny when occasionally he would do them when we were in our 20s/30s. He would occassionly talk in his sleep. Dh is nearly 60 and drives me insane I am up half the night with him shouting about filing cabinets and dogs. Tonight it could be trees and baths.

HUGE RED FLAG here.

I've not read the full thread but it seems to me that you really need to steer clear of this guy.

My father was and is incredibly tight-fisted. I am absolutely sure that if my mum had had another child when they met he'd have had a similar approach to not wanting to pay for their food.

As an example, when my mum got a new car (she earned a very little amount working part-time so they didn't earn equally) he LENT her the money to buy it and charged her interest! Do you really want someone like this?

My mum has always said she'd have rather put up with the odd infidelity than his meanness. They divorced in the early 2000s.

You can't discuss every single possible scenario in advance. You have to trust your partner to do the right thing.

You just have to assume that if you haven't discussed a particular scenario your partner is going to be behaving at his default behaviour which is one of being tight and withdrawing from taking on financial responsibility. Are you prepared to trust that he will change his view of how relationships and families behave and is this why you are seeking advice externally from a counsellor? To show him that he needs to address his thought process.

Obviously most of us agree that there are better ways to spend money than on ready meals and if that is the only concern of his I would agree you have room to learn and improve.

I honestly don't know what else you may be wasting your money (magazines?, books?, clothes?).
Would he support you paying cost of your mother's care home? What if that bill goes up?

You still didn't discuss with him maternity arrangements. That period when you won't be earning but still will have bills going out (in thousands). Would he pay those or expect you to save up. What if your health suffers and you can't go back to full-time work?