At an impasse over finances and how to move forward

[Fraughtfinances]

Name changed for privacy. Trying not to drip feed and apologies if this is long.

Background: DP and I have been together 18 months. I have a teenage DD whose father is not involved and does not contribute financially at all (never has). DP has no children.

DP owns his own house (not outright - there's another 15 years on the mortgage). I own my house (23 years left on mortgage). I have slightly more equity in my place that he does.

DP moved in to my place earlier this year. He rented his place out and currently has tenants living there. His place essentially pays for itself (technically it makes a profit as DP will have a small tax bill to pay on it each year). The idea is to think about having a baby next year.

Prior to moving into mine, we had some work done on my house. This comprised structural work and a new kitchen. The work had been on the cards for later in the year, but DP is a keen cook and loathed existing kitchen, so paid for the work which ran to more than envisaged (c. £25k rather than the original estimate of £15k). My plan had been to remortgage later in the year and use the money to do the kitchen then. As it is, I'm in the process of re-mortgaging in order to pay DP back the £25k.

Foolishly, we didn't sit down and thrash out how financials would work between us when DP moved in. I'd previously had lodgers in the spare room to help with living costs. When DP moved in, we agreed no more lodgers as it would make the place feel cramped. I'd assumed, wrongly, that when DP moved in, we'd split the household bills 50:50.

In terms of overall financials, I earn £52k and DP earns around £85k. I have no savings and a small amount of debt (around £3000 on credit card). DP has significant savings, shares and no debt. My monthly outgoings (in direct debits/standing orders alone) are around £2500 (not including food or petrol). A significant amount (around £600 per month) goes on school fees (although DD has an assisted place). I have very little disposable income.

DP's outgoings are only what he contributes towards the household which is currently £475 per month plus some money towards food (which is still not agreed). DP wants to split the food bill three ways as doesn't feel he should contribute towards the food costs of DD. He doesn't contribute towards the mortgage as feels that if he did, he would want a share of the property. I don't want to put him on deeds, as he already has a property which is being paid for by his tenants.

We've been arguing over this for the past few months and still have no resolution. I feel that he is profiting from the relationship (essentially he can save in excess of £4k per month, whereas I have about £100 per month disposable income and no hope of saving). I have lost my claim to child benefit since he moved in (although it would have been reduced partially owing to my salary). He feels I want to use him to subsidise my lifestyle and use him as a gravy train. He also feels I am emotionally blackmailing him by saying how it upsets me that he won't contribute towards DD's food costs.

I would really like some recognition that we're living as a family and that we share some of the burden (and I have no expectation that DP should pay towards things like school fees, school uniform or anything like that). Even if it was a gesture along the lines that DP would pay for meals out (if we go out for dinner or to the cinema) or holidays. Instead, I feel criticised for the choices I've made and the lifestyle I've lead. DP is fundamentally a saver; I am not. I accept that. I accept too, that I've put things on a credit card and paid if off later, rather than saved for it beforehand. I have an excellent credit score (have never defaulted on anything) but do have a lot of stress about finances and lack of money. DP has never once worried about money.

We spent all of yesterday arguing - the issue continues to crop up again and again when I am down to my last few pounds and worrying how to economise before payday, and DP is angry that I'm in the situation. At the moment, I have around £300 to cover food/petrol/going out/school uniform until the end of the month.

I was awake for hours in the night, as was DP, just getting more and more upset and stressed. I feel utterly drained. I don't know how to resolve this. My friends think DP is being unreasonable. His friends think I'm selfish and grasping. I'm trying to arrange to see a counsellor so that we can talk things through in a neutral environment. I just can't see how we move forward without one resenting the other. Nor do I know how on earth we'd manage finances if we have a baby.

Any comments or suggestions most welcome.

Stop right there with the amount spent on a fanily kitchen! He wanted a lovely kitchen- sorry but that's where it's started to come off the wheels. Like any family, it's sunk cost inti your home. Only its not his home. It's yours. Why did you even agree to it? And why are you paying him back when you are thinking of marrying him? It will all be joint.

I have to say, with his attitude to to you and your Dd not to marry him because although a pre nup is a good idea, you may find it doesn't stand up in court. You need a lawyer before you even open your mouth. See an embittered and cynical lawyer before you get married/ have a child and find out exactly what will happen if you divorce.

I bet if he moves out you'll be much better off. And all the invisible costs of running about after him and paying for his washing up liquid ( petty, but it's nut just that) will end up with you having money.

Why does he want a pre nup? I can garuntee its to protect him not you. What's yours is mine and what's mine is my own- is his mantra I think.

I don't know how you can say he's a wonderful man when his attitude to money, to you and your daughter all clearly show him to be mean, miserly, uncaring and selfish. It's not just an odd attitude, it's a fundamentally unpleasant attitude. You'd be a fool to have a baby with him and you are already a fool to inflict him on your daughter. You think she won't be picking up on his attitude to her food, her schooling and everything else he disapproves of? Dream on.

Reading this thread I can see that OP isn't really listening to nearly 300 different people telling her to be careful and not to trust this guy.

I am not sure what she was hoping to get out of this thread tbh but not what most of us are telling her I think.

This from the first page,
Even when he was earning less than £20k per annum, he always, always had money in the bank. His parents are the same. He has never had debt, never had a credit card, never had a student loan

Could also read "Never had a life"

Has he had previous girlfriends?

When he tells you how you could save more money, I think this is actually deflecting you away from the fact that he is actually the one who is crap with money. No way would anyone who is careful with money have £80k sitting in a CA. It would be invested or if not, if they had a huge mortgage then the money would be going to reduce the mortgage, or would be in some high interest account.

Also just how careful was he when he spent 25k on a kitchen.

I regard myself as careful and in larger purchases you can save a fortune by shopping around. First quote on my kitchen was around £25k. Painted units, Granite work surface, all intergrated appliances and oak flooring. Final bill will be around £11000 for exactly the same kitchen. That's being careful, not moaning about a £2 pot of mangos.

Also I did notice that all the things he "does" cost nothing. He probably doesn't buy you and your dd treats or anything that will involve putting his hand in his pocket.

Bang on Oliversmum!

antimatter I know from experience that even though it might appear an OP istn't listening it changes the way she views things in the near future. She can no longer not notice the things that will be said and done and demanded of her tomorrow, next week......... I created a thread in April (many years back) and I was told overwhemingly, resoundingly to leave. I left in July. People need ten minutes to digest and catch up!

Wow - have just read the whole thread - OP it's not often that mumsnet is as united with one opinion as they are on this thread. This man is not nice, he's not warm and he's not kind. He's cold, controlling and manipulating you and YOUR DAUGHTER!!
Have another read of some of Twinkelstein's posts as I think she nails his behaviour perfectly.
I expect the comments are a bit of a shock - but you really need to think about what your future would be like living with someone with such austere, cold clinical values. A family should be a place of warmth, love and kindness. I wonder what your daughter really deep down makes of him and his oh so unpleasant attitudes towards her. I'd worry that she just gets on with him because she has no choice - she loves you so she'll try to get on with him - but I'd put money on it that she doesn't really like him.

I too rarely comment on relationship threads, but, OP, your story horrifies me. This man sounds deeply troubled and as others have said, the red flags are proliferating in a very worrying fashion. I think worst of all is your poor DD being regarded as some sort of outcast (the whole food thing is especially awful).

I'm curious as to the other views he holds - a couple of times you've mentioned him being very anxious and having an 'odd perspective', but not elaborated. Could you expand on that?

For my part I am gobsmacked once again, an obviously bright intelligent OP is seriously considering having a baby without being married. MN is chocked full at the moment with women who have voluntarily put themselves in this situation usually with fairly high flying 'd' p's who promise the earth but leave their partners literally holding the baby and chasing for maintenance. In my book, not committed enough to marry makes it highly probable not committed enough to finance a child to adult hood. ..as for wanting a prenup ? tells you all you need to know. (and not worth the ink in the UK ) ...sorry OP, he seems to value money/his ability to save above you and your DD. in fact he sounds a bit obsessive about it which will never turn out well.

Op what's your view on what people are saying?

Ok. Should hear from counsellor in next few days to make an initial appointment.

In the meantime, we talked a lot more last night. Key points that arose from discussion were that I would not allow any notion of DD being "separate" in any way to us or the financials. If DP lives with us, DD is part of that package. DP has no right to try and divide money for food, heating, media or anything else. If DP wants to shut door in winter to keep bills lower, that's fine. But I said I was not willing to walk on eggshells or modify DD's behaviour re: eating/being a normal teenager. DP said that was fine.

I said that DP would also need to acknowledge that his income would count when DD goes to university etc. He said that was fine.

Re: disparity in finances. This continues to be a work in progress. We look at money in such different ways. My view is from a bottom line perspective in terms of cashflow. DP's view is that you can't look at money in isolation from everything else. That whilst financially he may be better off living with us, other things need to be taken into account too (e.g. less space, different lifestyle). He continues to look at money from a far more hypothetical manner. I look at it from the need to pay bills. Hopefully we might make progress in this area with the counsellor.

I made - and he accepted - the point that he isn't "good" with money - he just doesn't spend it. I said he would probably have double the amount he currently has if he'd invested it. He agreed.

Lots of comments have been made about the kitchen, which I still think is a red herring. I have no doubt I would have spent the same amount on the kitchen if I'd done it myself. The appliances were chosen by both of us. The additional costs would have incurred whether I was paying for it or not. DP has never said he wants me to pay him back for the kitchen - I'm the one who wants to.

Marriage/pre-nup: this isn't something that concerns me in any great way at present. If we did have a pre-nup, that would protect my assets in addition to his (if anything, mine have greater value overall). Obviously a pre-nup is only persuasive in court, rather than legally binding, but I wouldn't have a problem entering into one.

I promise I'm not sitting here with my fingers in my ears, ignoring the helpful comments and advice. Nor am I being obtuse. There are a number of other factors involved (which I don't want to divulge now as it would identify me) and I want to go to counselling and try and work through these things, if they can be worked through.

OP: I've had one child on my own and can have another if I wanted to

Just bear in mind - if you do have a child together and he goes part-time to look after them, then he would be the primary carer, and in the event of the relationship breaking down later, there's a good chance you will be the one paying child support and seeing them every other weekend.

(Obviously you would have to keep working FT because you couldn't possibly be allowed to sponge off him... )

Boulevard - I meant more along the lines of if we broke up, I would have no qualms about having a child alone, via a sperm donor IYSWIM.

That whilst financially he may be better off living with us, other things need to be taken into account too (e.g. less space, different lifestyle)

That is his choice though - you shouldn't be compensating him because living with you means he has to live 'a different lifestyle'.

If he doesn't like living with you he doesn't have to live with you.

Just wondered if hes fine with DD university fee, combining salaries, does that mean hes happy to contribute to them, or will it be, your daughter your fees, even though you`d get less grant, or will he make up the difference?

" I meant more along the lines of if we broke up, I would have no qualms about having a child alone, via a sperm donor IYSWIM"
Well you write that easily enough but the reality of all that would soon dawn upon you. I get the feeling that you are sleepwalking through all this and not much concerns you.

If after only 18 months you are already having to go to counselling what does that tell you about the overall state of this relationship?. Something is stopping you from seeing the truth of all this so what is it?. Your sense of "failure" if this ends, wanting to provide a father figure for your DD, your co-dependency issues?. He is simply profiting from all this at yours and yours DD expense. I can see what is in this for him but whats in this for you?.

I note your conversation of last night and I would just state that words are cheap. Look at his actions to date, he is basically telling you what you want to hear.

What are you teaching your DD about relationships here?.

He has less space than he did before but so do you, right? As in the lodger presumably didn't share your bedroom!

And - he has the same amount of space as you do now.

Ok, not read the full thread but this:

DP wants to split the food bill three ways as doesn't feel he should contribute towards the food costs of DD.

I do not know why you are planning a future with a man like this!! Also, why does he not pay rent if he's living in your place and so exacting about money and fairness. It seems the total and utter 'fairness' is all in his favour. Personally, I would run for the hills.

The conversation may seem like it went well superficially, but he's told you want you want to hear to keep the peace. Underneath it will confirm to him that you are after his money, that's how he will interpret it. He will talk to his friends and they will agree that it proves you are as 'grasping and selfish' as they said, and you want a man to help pay for dd as her bio dad doesn't.

Agreeing in the short term to patch things over is not the same thing as changing fundamentally his attitude to money and control.

It feels like you just want to get him to say the right things so you can get on with having the second baby you're desperate for.

DPs view is that you can't look at money in isolation from everything else. That whilst financially he may be better off living with us, other things need to be taken into account too (e.g. less space, different lifestyle

This is extraordinary - he's saying that while he may profit financially from the realtionship he has loses out in other ways - space, lifestyle - which justifies the financial compensation in the bigger picture.

He basically sees being in a relationship as losing out. Can you not see what an extraordinarily fucked up approach that shows? And you don't pick up on it and say to him 'if you see this relationship in terms of loss why are you here?'

Why are your alarm bells not ringing loud and clear OP?

That whilst financially he may be better off living with us, other things need to be taken into account too (e.g. less space, different lifestyle)

Well unless he wants to be single all his life then what does he expect. Really for someone who is supposed to be intelligent he can be pretty thick.

In all of this you haven't mentioned one thing that he has gladly given up to be a part of a family. The way he talks his mind set is still one of a single guy trying to live as cheaply as possible.

I am with the pp who said talk is cheap. Of course he is going to say anything he thinks you want to hear as whilst it might not be ideal for him atm sharing his space, he is still profiting from you. You on the other hand have to also share your space and you are losing money and you are having to walk on eggshells around him.

If your dp is even thinking that the food bill should be split 3 ways and your dd is financially not his responsibility then why do you believe he is going to fork out for Uni fees etc for her in years to come if he is begrudging her a £2 pot of mangos today.

In a way I think DP would be happier contributing thousands towards DD's uni fees than towards mango. As odd as it sounds, it's all based on a value of money approach. Pre-packed food/snacks/diet coke are all a waste of money and poor value in DP's view. Education, a new kitchen, good quality clothing and shoes are all valuable and he is happy to spend money on them. He spent in excess of £10,000 replacing his windows at his house just before he moved to mine (for four windows) - stunning quality and lovely windows. He would happily spend hundreds of pounds on a coat. But he would rather drink tap water and meal plan and take a packed lunch out, than "waste" money by buying food from M&S.

He is generous with gifts for DD and I. He cooks all meals and is a great cook. He sees value in things in a different way to others, though.

Ok that's fine - but he doesn't get to impose that "value" on you!

OP you sound happy with your situation, I can't remember what your point was at the beginning of the post now apart from lamenting that you have less money than him at the end of the month.