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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

At an impasse over finances and how to move forward

670 replies

Fraughtfinances · 10/08/2015 10:23

Name changed for privacy. Trying not to drip feed and apologies if this is long.

Background: DP and I have been together 18 months. I have a teenage DD whose father is not involved and does not contribute financially at all (never has). DP has no children.

DP owns his own house (not outright - there's another 15 years on the mortgage). I own my house (23 years left on mortgage). I have slightly more equity in my place that he does.

DP moved in to my place earlier this year. He rented his place out and currently has tenants living there. His place essentially pays for itself (technically it makes a profit as DP will have a small tax bill to pay on it each year). The idea is to think about having a baby next year.

Prior to moving into mine, we had some work done on my house. This comprised structural work and a new kitchen. The work had been on the cards for later in the year, but DP is a keen cook and loathed existing kitchen, so paid for the work which ran to more than envisaged (c. £25k rather than the original estimate of £15k). My plan had been to remortgage later in the year and use the money to do the kitchen then. As it is, I'm in the process of re-mortgaging in order to pay DP back the £25k.

Foolishly, we didn't sit down and thrash out how financials would work between us when DP moved in. I'd previously had lodgers in the spare room to help with living costs. When DP moved in, we agreed no more lodgers as it would make the place feel cramped. I'd assumed, wrongly, that when DP moved in, we'd split the household bills 50:50.

In terms of overall financials, I earn £52k and DP earns around £85k. I have no savings and a small amount of debt (around £3000 on credit card). DP has significant savings, shares and no debt. My monthly outgoings (in direct debits/standing orders alone) are around £2500 (not including food or petrol). A significant amount (around £600 per month) goes on school fees (although DD has an assisted place). I have very little disposable income.

DP's outgoings are only what he contributes towards the household which is currently £475 per month plus some money towards food (which is still not agreed). DP wants to split the food bill three ways as doesn't feel he should contribute towards the food costs of DD. He doesn't contribute towards the mortgage as feels that if he did, he would want a share of the property. I don't want to put him on deeds, as he already has a property which is being paid for by his tenants.

We've been arguing over this for the past few months and still have no resolution. I feel that he is profiting from the relationship (essentially he can save in excess of £4k per month, whereas I have about £100 per month disposable income and no hope of saving). I have lost my claim to child benefit since he moved in (although it would have been reduced partially owing to my salary). He feels I want to use him to subsidise my lifestyle and use him as a gravy train. He also feels I am emotionally blackmailing him by saying how it upsets me that he won't contribute towards DD's food costs.

I would really like some recognition that we're living as a family and that we share some of the burden (and I have no expectation that DP should pay towards things like school fees, school uniform or anything like that). Even if it was a gesture along the lines that DP would pay for meals out (if we go out for dinner or to the cinema) or holidays. Instead, I feel criticised for the choices I've made and the lifestyle I've lead. DP is fundamentally a saver; I am not. I accept that. I accept too, that I've put things on a credit card and paid if off later, rather than saved for it beforehand. I have an excellent credit score (have never defaulted on anything) but do have a lot of stress about finances and lack of money. DP has never once worried about money.

We spent all of yesterday arguing - the issue continues to crop up again and again when I am down to my last few pounds and worrying how to economise before payday, and DP is angry that I'm in the situation. At the moment, I have around £300 to cover food/petrol/going out/school uniform until the end of the month.

I was awake for hours in the night, as was DP, just getting more and more upset and stressed. I feel utterly drained. I don't know how to resolve this. My friends think DP is being unreasonable. His friends think I'm selfish and grasping. I'm trying to arrange to see a counsellor so that we can talk things through in a neutral environment. I just can't see how we move forward without one resenting the other. Nor do I know how on earth we'd manage finances if we have a baby.

Any comments or suggestions most welcome.

OP posts:
Ragwort · 10/08/2015 17:19

He earns £85K and he quibbles about the cost of your DD's share of the food bill Shock - you are utterly bonkers to stay with him, just re-read you opening post and you say you have been 'arguing for months over this'. And to expect you to re-mortgage to repay the cost of having the kitchen re-done the way he wanted? Shock Shock Shock

HE IS NOT GOING TO CHANGE.

I can't believe why you have even stayed with someone this mean for so long, he sounds thoroughly unpleasant. Meanness is a horrible trait in someone.

Sometimesjustonesecond · 10/08/2015 17:21

Another thing. While he might say that he would step up if you were unable to work/would support dd if something happened to you, his actions do not support that.

The very best advice I have seen (and received) on MN is not to judge your relationships by what your partner promises you, but by how he actually behaves. He is making it very clear that you and he are not a unit, not a family!

The other cracking bit of advice I have seen on here is that when someone tells you who they are, listen.

clam · 10/08/2015 17:21

A number of posters have said this, "I don't see why he should pay for your mortgage."
Why does him paying towards living in your house mean he might be entitled to a claim on its ownership. He needs to pay market rent to live in a 3 bedroom house, regardless of who owns it.

Ragwort · 10/08/2015 17:22

You are a lawyer and yet you can't see that this relationship is not right for you .............. I feel quite sorry for you; as someone else said you have done so well for yourself - a professional career (a fantastic salary), bringing up a DD on your own, sending her to private school, buying your own home - WHY do you need this cock-lodger in your life?

MarchLikeAnAnt · 10/08/2015 17:22

What is there to salvage?! In what ways does he show he loves you op?

firebladeklover · 10/08/2015 17:23

yes, very true sometimesjustonesecond I thought the same, about his actions. I doubt he would do anything that didn't serve his own financial interests.

Inexperiencedchick · 10/08/2015 17:23

100% what Pocketsaviour said.

NO WAY to a child.

Good luck, x

Ragwort · 10/08/2015 17:24

........... and please don't reply because I luuuuuuuuuuuuurve him Hmm.

firebladeklover · 10/08/2015 17:25

OP, you said a few posts back that you raised one baby alone you can do it again. I fear this is at the centre of your problem? The baby is non-negotiable.

Well I hope you don't have a baby with this guy, but if you do, don't put his name on the birth certificate and don't feel that you need to have a relationship with him. You'd be better off goinng to a sperm bank if it's the desire to have another baby that keeps you with this guy.

RandomFriend · 10/08/2015 17:27

Is the counselling for you? or is it couples therapy?

AttilaTheMeerkat · 10/08/2015 17:31

"I appreciate the frustration among posters - I am taking everything on board. I am not a walkover. I have coped with relationship breakdowns in the past and can deal with them again if necessary. I've had one child on my own and can have another if I wanted to. That's not the issue. I just don't want to throw away something if it can be salvaged".

You may be a "strong woman" in real life but he has and will continue to break you and by turn your DD who is seeing a real life example of a dysfunctional relationship being played out in front of her. You are really a complete walkover when it comes to him and you will never be an equal in his eyes.

That last sentence of yours is particularly interesting; that smacks of sunken costs fallacy. If the only pro of continuing to do something is to feel better about the emotional investment you’ve made, clearly you should go in the other direction. You think still that there is a small chance of this being at all salvaged, the idea of ""throwing something away" is also interesting and points to the sunken costs fallacy. Its basically also causing you to continue to make poor relationship decisions.

rookiemere · 10/08/2015 17:32

Look to be fair to your DP I believe he loves you as much as it is possible for him to love another person. Sadly that isn't very much at all.

In his mind he has made great sacrifices. He has moved in - sacrificing his independence, he has lent you money - sacrificing his nest egg, he is being nice to your DD - sacrifice of his spare time.

Being part of a couple requires compromises and adjustments on both sides and I suspect that your DP believes that by doing the above he has more than fulfilled his part of the bargain.

Meanwhile you're in debt to the tune of £25k, you've lost benefit through having him in the house and you've lost your lodger contributions, although these are partly made up by his £475. Such a precise amount by the way.

Let me predict what will happen in counselling. You'll put your case across eloquently and persuasively. He will make some small gestures that pacify you enough to continue running pretty much with the status quo.

Then a year or so later, you'll be in exactly the same position as you are now. If you're lucky. If you're not then you may have a baby which will of course be a lovely blessing, but not so much with this guy.

I hope that I'm wrong and counselling helps you to move this forward fundamentally, whatever the outcome of that ends up being.

YonicScrewdriver · 10/08/2015 17:42

Leaving his name off the birth certificate makes no difference if he seeks PR though.

YonicScrewdriver · 10/08/2015 17:45

If you develop a disease and need special meal supplements or medical equipment, will he croticse you further for money sprnt on this necessity?

Strawberryfield12 · 10/08/2015 17:53

OP, when you say you don't expect him pay for your DD... think again. If you plan baby with that man you should expect him pay for DD full on. Because when you will be on maternity leave with his child, you will receive about £600 from the government and you don't have any savings to cover the shortage during the maternity leave. So what is going to happen with your DD and yourself? Are you going to loose house because he wouldn't pay your mortgage unless you sign another letter of trust giving him right for the share of the property? Are you going to starve with DD because food bill is divided 3 ways? What will happen with DD's school? And your creditcard debt? You just cannot afford to have baby with this man. I am on maternity leave and although my employer has generous maternity pack, I have come to realisation that having a baby means a reliance on the man.

JimineyJelickers · 10/08/2015 17:56

I think Joysmum had it up thread when she said No way I'd ever put up with anyone who saw moving in as 'loss of freedom and space' rather than a gain of 2 fantastic women in his life.

He should be happy to live with you and your daughter, this should be the honeymoon period. Instead he thinks you and your daughter are scabs (while he spunks £25k of your money on a kitchen).

If you really want a child it would be better to use a sperm donor. At least a donor wouldn't try to bankrupt you in order to control you better.

firebladeklover · 10/08/2015 17:56

Rookiemere, that's what happened when I went to counselling with x. I put forward my case so convincingly in front of the woman (who didn't tell me to run for the hills, and now, that puzzles me), anyway, he made a few small concessions, but acted a bit passively half-witted in counselling, rather than the articulate, persuasive, domineering steamroller he was outside of counselling. A year later, things were back to normal, but he got clever-er along the way. Cards that had been in his name were in my name. I ended up having legally responsible for the debts on the card even though he was clearing the debt (if I behaved).

Rafflesway · 10/08/2015 18:01

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ShebaShimmyShake · 10/08/2015 18:02

My grandfather always said: cheap with money, cheap with love.

firebladeklover · 10/08/2015 18:03

I agree Rafflesway, I'd be turning in my grave at the thoughts of her in his 'care'.

I agree wrt the legal part as well. He'd be like the second mrs Dashwood.

Twinklestein · 10/08/2015 18:07

It seems that everything stems from a fear of my attitude towards money (which is a lot more relaxed than his)

No no it goes much deeper than that. This isn't just about attitude to money, he fears being in a relationship, he fears it will cause him to lose control of his life, because he is fundamentally a very very controlling man.

It's one thing to count pennies and be frugal, but what he has done is move into your house and try to control everything that you & dd do - your food, your internet, your heating, your kitchen... It's NOT his house. He has no right to tell you how to live - and he's not just doing it because he massive issues with money, he's doing because he has massive issues with control.

The whole 'you're crap with money' line is a strategy to undermine you and to control you. He implies that you less successful than him at running your finances and he needs to be in charge. That's handy isn't it? It gets him where he wants to be.

The 'walking on eggshell' feeling you describe is so common in emotionally abusive scenarios and he is skirting very close to 'coercive control'.

I agree with pp who said that you may not be a walkover generally but you are with this man. You have accepted totally unreasonable terms, you've accepted debt you could have done without, you've accepted his telling you how to live in your own home.

I have no idea why you would want to salvage anything with a man like this - I guess you had dreams of having a sibling for dd and being a family.
But - even accepting that you do - how do you think that is possible?

How can he completely change his entire attitude to relationships, money and life, when he doesn't even want to?? It's not going to happen.

He's said he doesn't want to pay for dd, so let's say you go to therapy and the therapist takes him to task and he grudgingly agrees to contribute - he's always going to hold it against you and her - and he will feel he has the right to control everything she eats, wears, buys - because he's paying for some of it.

And if you push forward with some compromise with him you & dd are going to live very controlled lives. If you stand up to him you will have arguments every single day.

Longtalljosie · 10/08/2015 18:10

I was in an abusive relationship a long time ago. I know what it's like to compartmentalise your partner - to look at all the bits of them apart from the bit that is abusive and say - "that's him. That's who he really is. That's the man I love". To try and twist and turn yourself into a perfect version of yourself, to blame yourself, to tell yourself if only you were a bit better, worked a bit harder, had a break, saw a counsellor, that there would be a way through this and the issue causing the abuse would go away. And then you could have the relationship you want (and in your case the baby you want).

But it's all smoke and mirrors love. And dangerous because you're making this decision on behalf of your existing daughter, who will have a pretty tense life if this continues. You say time is running out - how old are you? Even if it is, you need to accept this is financial abuse, it won't improve, and that bringing a baby into the situation would be irresponsible. I get that it would be heartbreaking to say goodbye to the chance of a second child. But you have a duty to the one you have.

MiddleAgedandConfused · 10/08/2015 18:10

Even if you get counselling, could you tolerate a lifetime of fighting over every pot of mango? He might make a few concessions, but he seems set in his ways. I never say LTB, but in this case I will make an exception.

TendonQueen · 10/08/2015 18:12

Don't show him the thread. It's not ever a good idea and I'm always astonished when people suggest it. This is your space for opinions and reflection. Take your time thinking things over - you don't have to do anything within 30 mins just to appease the 'frustration' of posters - but don't rush into major decisions like the baby, and look carefully at everything he says and does.

Is he like this with other people too? Does he pay for meals for friends, or drinks, if they are strapped for cash? Does he tip in restaurants?

magoria · 10/08/2015 18:16

Can you imagine if you die and your poor DD is living with him without you as a buffer?

It will be water, no netflix etc. Every penny he spends on her will be accounted for and taken from what you leave behind for her. She will be walking on eggshells and maybe conditioned into expecting a life like this for her future.

Get plans made in place for her asap that don't involve him!