Happily single and no threat to your man so why do you fear me?

[notrocketscience]

Reading another poster on the difficulties of a single woman mixing with men through mutual interests; rambling, sport, photography, studying, evening classes...
It got me wondering, and I've suffered from this most of my life as my interests do not include spas and shopping or TV soaps. I like men and have had serious relationships but I also like them as friends. I'm currently a very happy single mother and with no intention of starting another relationship. I'm not a cheater and will not encourage any taken man. Yet other women do see me as a threat and it hurts because I'm really not and it does impact on my very limited social life. Is being a single woman such a bad thing that everyone automatically thinks I must be hanging out for the first man to offer me a quick one? (And don't get me started on the number of mm friends of the Ex who thought exactly that).

*So why was I been invited after I got married

Editing fail!

So why was I invited after I got married?

BECAUSE I became single, more to the point: I was suddenly out, suddenly non-U.

My experience was the reverse of this and supports the point.

One I got married after years of singleness, having been out, I was suddenly in.

I know it's the case.

When I lived with my x, we were included, invited, we hung around with different couples near us, who were at the same stage with their children. When I relocated, because I'm a sociable person, I honestly thought it was be easy to get in to another group of people who would include me. But instead, I'm included in what the wives do mon-fri but never what goes on at the weekend. And it's not my expectations confirming my beliefs, it's not a self-fulfilling prophecy. I thought the world had moved on. I wasn't expecting this.

The ''maybe people don't want to spend time with'' comments are really mean and just wilfully blind to the issue.

Cheersmedea it's so refreshing to hear a married person who's been in the single boat too confirm it!

What kind of things are you talking about at the weekend, fire? I'm a part-time single mum in that dh works away for about 6 months of the year. I do things in the week with my female friends but i rarely do anything with them at the weekend. This isn't because my friends don't want me around their husbands nut more because the weekends are their family time. It's not their responsibility to entertain me at the weekends when i'm on my own.

If they're doing social things in the evening i get invited whether dh is here or not. I've frequently been the only one without a partner.

And yes, the 'maybe he didn't want to spend tme with you'd comment perhaps was unnecessarily mean so i apologise for that, cheers. However, i still don't believe that the reason some single women aren't included in social events with couples is because the wives are insanely jealous. Unless you're a good friend of both the woman and the man i wouldn't expect you to be invited.

I suppose we all perceive things differently.

Unless you're a good friend of both the woman and the man i wouldn't expect you to be invited

Well isn't the trouble that it is generally socially unacceptable (with all the honorable exceptions who have posted here and who some of us know in real life) for a single woman to be good friends with a married man?

Anxious Aggie

i still don't believe that the reason some single women aren't included in social events with couples is because the wives are insanely jealous. Unless you're a good friend of both the woman and the man i wouldn't expect you to be invited.

I know this is a long thread but I don't think that you can have properly read either what I was posting, the detail I have gone into or what others have said.

The instance you are referring to was in a work context (and not the only example) where a work colleague frequently uses his S.France chateau to set up weekends away/short breaks for varying house party groups for work colleagues and contacts. Couples are OK. Single men are OK. My experience is single women are not OK.

I don't think anyone is saying all wives are "insanely jealous" - that is just a trite way of pigeonholing the point by exaggeration. There is a social pressure whereby it is unacceptable for single women to be included in this sort of thing. Some of it definitely comes from the wives/female partners. You don't need to be "insanely jealous" to prefer your husband not to be socialising with an attractive single woman or to prefer her to be excluded from your social groupings and events.

The major point that I have taken from this thread is actually that the minimising of the issue is part of the problem.

There are a handful of posts on this thread where very honest people have admitted it is an issue - but most married women seemed to be suggesting this was an invented ego problem of single women.

I fear I am pot/kettle/black as I am married now (but married late); but I have very definite evidential experience of this. It was probably more starkly visible to me because I'd really fought against it (as I work in a male dominated environment - where as you age - it is very hard to establish good friendships if you are a single woman with your colleagues; no one asks you round for dinner).

Yes that's the big shock for me Cheersmedea, the reluctance of married women to just acknowledge that it is an issue. YOu're put on trial for suggesting it! I get that it's no individual married woman's fault. We've all said how we acknowledge that to have two over for dinner, or two couples is the norm, how six chairs fit around a table..... we get it. we're not blaming individual married women! So, in my opinion it'd just be nice to have our experiences acknowledged rather than cross-examined.

In my opinion, and it's another question of perception, being a part time single mother isn't the same. You're still married, people know there's a man in the background, people know you're not available, you're not open to a new relationship, you're shored up financially (even if you also work), your interests are mutual, your futures are shared.

It's not the same. I don't mean to have a pop at you but really, it's so different. I get that you do a lot of childcare, I believe you!! The childcare aspect of being a single parent doesn't even impact upon me now as the children are a bit older and I'm so used to it. It's the things that I mentioned above that would be issues for me now.

Actually cheese i hadn't rtft when i posted my initial comment about the holiday. I thought i had but it turned out the page just hadn't loaded properly. I was confused to see so many comments before mine after i'd posted and felt a bit of a dick when i read on...and on...and on...and saw how the thread had moved on! Damn phone!

I don't know, we can only base things on our own experiences and we don't all experience the same things, so these kinds.of threads will always be full of disagreements.

And no, i was in no way inferring that having a dh working away is like being a single mum. The 'part time single mum' was supposed to be tongue in cheek though i should have punctuated it with a . It's the closest thing to being alone that i have so i was drawing on those experiences.

Personally, i'm happy for dh to have single female friends (he has) and happy to socialise with them (we do) but that's all simply anecdotal and not intended to undermine your experiences. I don't care whether the women are 'smokin' hot' or otherwise. The only thing i would be at is if she declared herself to only get on with men and fail to make effort with me because 'women are all bitchy / gossips / only like shopping / don't talk about indepth things' etc which are some of the comments that irked me at the beginning of the thread.

The major point that I have taken from this thread is actually that the minimising of the issue is part of the problem.

And it's not my expectations confirming my beliefs, it's not a self-fulfilling prophecy. I thought the world had moved on. I wasn't expecting this.

I rather think Cheers and fire have summed it up beautifully.

Cheers the French Chateau entertaining thing has a very logical explanation, and it isn't that the women in the couples wouldn't like it. HR wouldn't like it - too big a risk of an harassment claim. I'm sure would be the reaction of most people who read that, but it's how it is. The corporate world is paranoid. Much easier to just not have a situation where someone could claim anything untoward.

The main point I have taken from this thread is that despite numerous examples disproving the OP, the single faction is determined that all those experiences are just not valid. I'm not minimising, I'm looking at the analysis on here.

If you believe all married women hate you, and don't want you around their DH's, you are going to believe that whatever I or any other married woman says. It will then become a self fulfilling prophecy. As I said upthread I'd probably not be friends with someone who had thoughts like that about me. I'd definitely not socialise with them. So de facto they'd feel I was excluding them.

As for dinner parties, the kind of people who have formal dinner parties go to endless trouble to find guests who gel. They'd probably stick to the even numbers couple quota. People like me who can't stand salad forks, seating plans and coffee after dessert affairs invite whoever, and if they have nothing in common and all fight, well so what

I don't doubt people have had bad experiences, but that doesn't mean this is how everyone thinks. When divorce carried a stigma, yes everyone did think like that. It doesn't anymore. What's the current statistic for marriage breakdown? 50%? More? If that was a reason for exclusion no-one would have any friends at all.

An example - I met up with an old school friend who I hadn't seen in about 20 years. When she arrived with dcs but without partner I assumed she was single. Thought nothing of it other than I'd probably made too many scones. She was obviously very awkward about telling me, and told me in a round about way that her mother had said 'but does Worse even know that you are divorced?'. That's a shame.

This isn't an agree to disagree post, it's one that is saying things aren't that black and white.

Interesting thread this. I hope those who feel excluded will feel less so, having read some of the comments.

Ffs Worse, we don't believe married women hate us. We believe that five chairs round the table leaves a gap, and there's no room for a seventh chair.

You are putting the blame back on single women saying that we're determined to believe married women hate us. Have you no willingness to understand at all.

As for your beliefs about the corporate world thinks - well, they're quite shocking. Are you sayint that the corporate world thinks that only a single woman would object to being harassed? Or maybe only a single woman would come forward if she were harassed? Or is it that the single woman would be doing the harassing? Utter nonsense. There's no guideline that supports this. It's not minimising any legitimate risk of litigation to exclude single women. If it happens it's because people drawing up the guest lists can't cope with five chairs or 7 chairs.

I think it's really weird that you're so invested in to telling a group you don't belong to that their perception of their experience is in fact, wrong. Really weird.

worse

Cheers the French Chateau entertaining thing has a very logical explanation, and it isn't that the women in the couples wouldn't like it. HR wouldn't like it - too big a risk of an harassment claim. . . The corporate world is paranoid. Much easier to just not have a situation where someone could claim anything untoward

I'm so pleased that you felt able to swiftly identify the root of the problem and assumed that I, who spent hours agonising over this career issue which upset me, was too stupid to have thought of this. So really very well done. Clever you.

As it happens, you are totally wrong. First, because this man is not subject to an HR department at all. I can't say more without being identifying - but think of say a famous concert pianist or a leading actor or the man that owns the company - in other words someone who is or is de facto self employed with no HR dept he is answerable to.

Secondly, this is the last man on earth who would be worried about a harassment claim; he makes Warren Beatty look like a nun.

So you are totally wrong. But thanks for helpfully pointing out that, once again, a woman who has evidence that she was treated prejudicially when she was single, is of course both stupid and barking mad.

If you believe all married women hate you, and don't want you around their DH's, you are going to believe that whatever I or any other married woman says

Where did anyone say that?

I actually base part of my opinion on some experiences and a large part of it on mumsnet threads, where a lot of posters think that if a woman's husband is friends with a single woman, there must be something inappropriate going on and she should insist that he break off that friendship.

Yes, what Atenco said.

Atenco I, too, am staggered by the number of mumsnet threads detailing experiences of cheating, betrayal and abuse. The number of posters distrusting their OH would seem to outnumber whose who trust implicitly, however, as these threads are generally about relationships the bias will of course be the dysfunctional ones.

Is it not a form of female abuse/control to insist one's partner is no longer allowed to have female friendships or communications even if these predated his current relationship?

Does all form of abuse stem from a feeling of insecurity?

It must be insecurity to regard all single women over 35/40 as possible temptation to partnered men. Yes, that is a gross generalization and there must be many other reasons. (We've had some - these women are shallow, vain, stupid, flirts, and so on).

I don't think it fair to say the "single faction" are so narrow minded as to not recognize there will be some who don't experience this marginalization.

I do think it fair to say this thread has highlighted an unspoken problem that is as hurtful as it is unnecessary.

I think it's really weird the way that some women are insisting that ALL of this is totally spun out of the insecurity of the single woman. It's more normal to see both sides of the story. I would fully accept that there are some married women who don't have an issue with this type of thing. It's strange that there is this total insistence that it is a non-problem by so many women here. Major minimisation of the issue.

In the case of the Chateau man, I don't think it's just about pressure from his wife but it maybe. I strongly suspect she has massive input into the guest list. I think it's a wider thing that other couples wouldn't think it was socially appropriate to have a single woman staying there.

Whatever the underlying reason, there was a very different treatment to single women and single men. Since I got married, I've been there when there have been single men there (including both "single" men and men who are married but came alone) but still never a woman on her own -whether single or not.

Cheers, wrt the chateau (sorry, i know it was just one example and it keeps getting revisited) did you ever ask if you could go back when you were single or heavily hint that you would have liked to? Could you even ask him now in a lighthearted way? Like 'how come i wasn't invited here until i was married?' kind of thing. It would be interesting to hear his reasons.

(And that's not me saying that your presumptions aren't right )

And tbh, if my dh made warren Beatty look like a nun ( ) i probably wouldn't be too trusting of him and no, probably wouldn't want him inviting single women on holiday. That would be due to his reputation rather than seeing said woman as a threat though. The outcome would, however, be the same for that single woman: exclusion.

Aggie

No. I never asked him about it. As someone posted up thread, anyone is free to invite who they like. I was concerned that it was that he didn't like me etc. Besides, it's really rude to ask something like that. I don't think I would now either (which is probably an example of me joining the club I complained about when I was single I'm sorry to say) - as it's been a good thing for me work wise to get invited and that's more important than rocking the boat. Makes me hypocritical I know. But if I had a chance and opportunity, I'd definitely encourage him to invite up and coming women.

Regarding the Warren Beatty thing, that's a bit of an exaggeration on my part. He has a reputation for playing away but I get the impression that either his wife doesn't know or turns a blind eye. I get the impression that he's of that upper class type that thinks as long as it's not rubbed in your wife's face and with no one she knows, it's fine. The last rumour I heard about him was with a married woman anyway. The main point about that is that there is no way that the reason for non-invite before I got married in my case was anything to do with HR/sexual harassment fears. Besides it wouldn't have ever been just me and him anyway - it's a group of people.

Even if his wife is aware, the fact he as a man is unfaithful with other women who I've never even met isn't actually my problem as a single woman or something I would participate in. I wouldn't have sex with a married man. And no one would be so stupid as to do that under the same roof as his wife anyway I would have thought. It goes back to the underlying assumption that if the man is unfaithful, single women would sleep with him or at risk of it.

*I've never even met isn't actually my problem as a single woman

^^ This is figuratively speaking btw referable to the time. I am happily married and still wouldn't sleep with a married man other than my DH!! :D

'I think it's really weird the way that some women are insisting that ALL of this is totally spun out of the insecurity of the single woman.

Where has anyone sad that?

To quote myself earlier:
'I don't doubt people have had bad experiences, but that doesn't mean this is how everyone thinks.'

I believe there is discrimination in the corporate world against women. Not just single. Once you are married the whole maternity leave issue stands against you.

I can believe some women marginalise single ones.

I don't believe the majority do.

Cheers I made an assumption your chateau was a corporate event. I wonder if he thought you wouldn't enjoy it on your own (so to speak).

It's true cheers, you can never, ever say ''how come I wasn't included?!" no matter how mystifying or painful the exclusion was.

It only hurts the first couple of times. After that, you get it. You get that you're a mon-friday friend. But the moment of realisation is very painful. I feel for you too that it held you back professionally. That is an injustice that would be more ongoing imo.

I'm really trying to 'round up' single friends at the moment. The few I know they don't know each other. But I'm making more effort to catch up with them individually even though they don't live as near to me.