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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Husband re-contacting OW - so hurt - very long, sorry

179 replies

Dancingtothemusicoftime · 21/07/2015 11:17

Hello, I've NC for this but am a long-time lurker and occasional poster, including about my DH's affair which took place four years ago while I was working temporarily overseas with my company. The support I received at the time was fantastic and assisted me in regaining my emotional sanity after truly despicable behaviour at the hands of H and OW.

The OW used every option to try and destroy me professionally and personally, including making malicious and unfounded complaints to my employer and the police (the latter resulted in her receiving a formal caution) and did the same to my H, after we made the decision to try and rebuild our marriage.

Because of my H's behaviour in the six months after I discovered their affair and before he properly ended it with her, the process of reconciliation has been very challenging and painful as I battled to get over the absolutely dreadful things he said to me about me and my numerous shortcomings in relation to the 'perfect' OW - these ranged across the whole gamut of my looks, my weight, my hair (she has glorious hair - mine is thin and has been a cause of much self-consciousness from a very early age), my lack of sportiness, my poor culinary ability (she has cooked professionally), plus my age - I am 12 years older than her. He now bitterly regrets his cruelty but is has left me with profound emotional scars and my self-confidence about my appearance which was never high anyway, has been decimated.

The situation was complicated by the fact that they worked in the same team as her and it was not until he sought a move of location to a different depot that he seemed able to put the relationship with her behind him and properly focus on us, although her making the numerous allegations she did repeatedly set us back. But he did everything to try and demonstrate his remorse and make clear his determination to seek my forgiveness - NC and blocking her, individual counselling for him and relationship counselling for us, changing the car in which she had given him a regular blow job before he dropped her back home after work, and getting rid of the furniture they had had sex on in our family home during my absence, the job move - which also involved a family house move right across the country (I was fine with this), plus repeatedly and unprompted, expressing his guilt and sorrow. On occasions he has cried about how much he hurt me and our 3 DC.

I have struggled to get over it all and was on antiDs for two years before weening myself off them. I have lived with the niggling fear that he has been going through the motions but reasoned that he could have left if he had really wanted to as she had told her DH she wanted to marry my H and her DH, although devastated, had made it clear to her - and me - that he had no wish to be the consolation prize and would agree to a divorce if my DH did leave me for her. However my H was adamant that it was me he wanted, not her, and said that he knew he had been in the grip of limerence during the affair and for some months after and that the cold turkey approach had been the only solution.

Things have been slowly improving between us but I admit that on occasion my hurt and humiliation can bubble up but I always apologise if I lose it and he responds by apologising too for having given me cause to react that way

  • I can honestly say that she was no longer of any great interest to me and I could even view the entire thing in a fairly objective, almost neutral, manner most (not all!) of the time.

However 4 weeks ago I was woken by a Skype call in the middle of the night. I thought it might be one of my colleagues currently working overseas but was horrified to see it was a missed call from the OW. I immediately woke my H with a 'why the fuck is xxxxxx skypeing me?' - to my devastation he immediately told me everything - showing me the emails between them and the whatsapp conversation. He had re-contacted her at the beginning of the year after we had a difficult Christmas following the sudden and totally unexpected death of his DM, and after being told by his company that the promotion he had long expected was now never going to happen. He said he felt I had been 'fairly supportive' about both events (very unfair particularly about his DM as I arranged the funeral from start to finish, sorted out the money, her small estate etc etc because he was in pieces and his 2 sisters were estranged from their mum) - but he knew that he would get 'more sympathy' from her as she has long made it clear via third parties that she still wants him. There was no resumption of their sexual relationship although in her messages she begged to have sex with him (he refuses in his replies, saying that he could not betray me or the children again in that way), but there is very much an emotional reconnection.

He ended it immediately that day - telephoned her husband to apologise - they had decided to reconcile for the sake of their young DC after my H made it clear after their first affair that he wanted to remain in our marriage. He also sent her an email apologising for getting her hopes up again for purely selfish and egocentric reasons. He swears that he had 'finally' grown up and truly realised how dreadful both the original affair and now this revisiting their emotional affair has been and what a 'complete fool' he has been. He said he had been self-pitying, pathetic and wanted the assurance that he could still have a beautiful woman risk everything in order to be with him. I have no doubt that the OW skyped me in order to provoke a reaction in both him and me but frankly I don't care about her motives.

But despite all that he has now done I feel dead inside. I can not comprehend that he resumed an affair with a woman who had done so much very real damage to both of us! Nor that he wilfully set aside all the shit and hard work we have endured individually and as a couple to really start to rebuild our marriage. I have told him that if he truly loves her I will not stand in their way but he has begged for forgiveness and is adamant that it was a lapse driven by external factors. But when I ask him how long it would have continued had the OW not contacted me, he just says that it would have 'fizzled out' because he had realised that he had 're-opened Pandora's Box' and was 'desperate' to close it again but feared that if he did so too abruptly then based on her past actions, she would wreak havoc again. Certainly the exchanges I have seen between them are unbalanced in the sense that she repeatedly begs for more, to plan for a future together, for sex, while his are very non-committal and almost like an exchange with a close friend rather than a lover. And he does mostly talk about his distress over the death of his DM and how frustrated he is professionally. Unlike their last relationship he writes nothing derogatory about me but does talk about his pride in my professional achievements. But even the latter disgusts me as how DARE he discuss me in any way with her!

I still love him but at the moment I despise him. He did what he knew I feared most in terms of our relationship. He has changed since this latest revelation and seems genuinely committed to gaining my forgiveness. But where will I ever find peace of mind now? Will the next life crisis see him running back to her?? He says not and that he has finally 'woken up'.

I am so very sorry for the length of this but if there is anyone out there who has experienced a similar scenario I would love to hear what the outcome was. Please don't flame me wise mumsnetters for having believed him when he said it was over for good the first time around..

OP posts:
Offred · 22/07/2015 10:40

Absolutely give up any illusions you may have of having an "amicable co parenting relationship" with this man.

He does not love your children. He has demonstrated that over and over through his behaviour. He will not put the children first. Everything in his life is and always has been set up to compensate for his insecurity and weakness by using other people he has done this with your children already. Everything is set up to serve him he feels entitled to this is is extremely likely to become very angry and difficult if anything looks likely to detract from that.

I know that you have said your children have seen you standing up to him but they have also spent all their lives in a family where everything is set up around him as the centre of the family, where his needs and wants are the only thing that matters and where no matter what he says or does to you and no matter how you respond, you have always deferred to him as the centre of the family, deferred to his demands and desires and his great sense of entitlement about that. I know you felt you didn't want to give up on the relationship last time but what the children have learned from that is that he is the most important person in the world and that you agree with him about that. It literally does not matter what you may have said or how you may have felt, what you did was the pick me dance followed by the appeasement dance - both confirming his view of himself as entitled to special treatment in his eyes and the children's eyes.

I would urge you to apply both the emotional and rational sides of your personality to getting out of this relationship. I think in the past you have probably trained yourself to tolerate this crap because you've allowed yourself to feel things about staying and think of ways to fix it only.

Also to be under absolutely no illusions that although how you have reacted to his behaviour has contributed to the situation now it is absolutely and firmly his fault. You must start seeing him as an enemy to yourself and your children. I actually have never seen worse examples of behaviour that, to an objective observer, confirm that fact. He is absolutely not to be trusted with anything where you need him to be reasonable and fair IMO. You will need to take steps to protect you and the children in your ongoing interactions with him.

Offred · 22/07/2015 10:43

The level of craziness the OW displays is a warning sign about who he is as much as it is a sign of who she is.

Offred · 22/07/2015 10:45

If you get him out of your space I believe you will find it much easier to process all this and function properly in relation to your responsibilities.

Offred · 22/07/2015 10:48

And I think you are completely wrong about this;

I imagine he didn't reckon on her determination to ensure that this time round, she got her man.

Her "determination" and the fact he knows you forgave his relationship with her are very strong reasons for him to contact her.

He doesn't like it when people don't think he is the best thing ever. He wants everyone to treat him as though he is special at all times because he is fundamentally weak and insecure. Contacting her served two needs - worship with lower risk than starting a new affair and the opportunity to put you in your place about not worshipping him sufficiently.

Offred · 22/07/2015 10:50

Basically he knew the lengths she would go to to get him and that it would involve contacting you in some way so he gave her just enough to make her crazy enough to go for you in some way. He wanted you to know and he wanted her to contact you so he had no obvious responsibility for his behaviour and could manipulate you into, amongst other things, seeing him as the victim of a 'crazy' woman.

Offred · 22/07/2015 10:52

I don't think you are a masochist. I think it is as simple as you are a normal emotionally healthy person who is dealing with an abusive man.

Offred · 22/07/2015 10:58

And total bullshit about him being in the grip of limerance... She was in the grip of limerance... He was using that to his advantage, destroying your self worth so you would accept that he is the.most.important.person.in.the.world.

Miggsie · 22/07/2015 11:01

Don't listen to your GP or your husbands counsellor on this:

GPs/doctors know almost nothing about mental health or how abuse manifests. They often overlook this and put it down to grief or depression despite not knowing anything about it.

Counsellors are also ill equipped to spot abusive people, Lundy Bancroft has written at length about how counsellors often buy into the abusers story and then this is used against the victim as legitimising the abuse.

You husband is abusive, emotionally manipulative and utterly self centered. For your own mental health and that of your children, you have to get him out of your lives.

PenguindreamsofDraco · 22/07/2015 11:03

Oh I'm not saying at all that you have volunteered for this up until now. I'm sorry if you read it that way. I absolutely do not think that - it takes massive courage to try again (once) after an affair comes to light. I am certainly not saying you have condoned what he has done until now that you have found out.

But I am suggesting that if you stay with him, you are volunteering for it again, and choosing to walk into that torture chamber. Because now you know, beyond a doubt, who he is and what he is capable of. So any decisions you make now, you make on that basis.

Oh and, you worked really hard over the last 4 years to re-build. He went through the motions for as long as it was expedient for him to do so.

Sorry again if I upset you.

Dancingtothemusicoftime · 22/07/2015 11:18

Offred you make as usual some interesting points. Funnily enough he has claimed regularly over the years that he has to bend over backwards to appease ME as I am 'demanding' and yet it is me who has weighed my words to ensure he can't be offended; it is me who dreads his loss of temper publicly as he doesn't cope well with crowds and tends to overreact to imagined slights from strangers. Not -.thank god - by assaulting them or anything, but things such as storming out of cafes etc when we are out as a family if we are having to wait for seats while people linger over drinks. The children dread it too but their default position is ' please mummy, stop daddy being angry'. Last time we went to London on a family outing he ran off with my son trying to catch up with him and persuade him to return to us. The prompt for this immature behaviour by my H was our youngest whinging about wanting a specific toy in a gift shop. Ironically he has told me that his own father used to do exactly the same when my H was a child and how much he hated it.

I suppose I was always surprised that such a good looking man would marry me - several people over the years have said 'wow, you did well' on meeting him for the first time. One of my eldest daughter's teachers actually commented to her that she had the best-looking father in the school! She is a young teacher and I imagine it was meant as a compliment but I know it made my daughter feel very uncomfortable as she was worried that 'Miss' may fancy her father with all the ramifications that have flown from that before for her.

When he had the first affair with OW her male line manager said to me that although he thought both my H and the OW had been completely unprofessional, and he was sorry for the situation I found myself in, 'any red-blooded man' would probably have done the same as my H if they had the chance to have a relationship with someone 'who looks like OW'. Yes,I did report it to his HR but he denied saying it so it was my word against his.
But it floored me and reinforced my feeling of just being totally worthless and unattractive.

I realise I am rambling now and I know some of you are impatient with my apparent lack of resolve but I am so, so grateful for your input irrespective of its tenor. Thank you for taking the time to post to a stranger. It has helped me immeasurably, not least to clarify that irrespective of the loss of his mum, his behaviour has been unforgivable.

OP posts:
Offred · 22/07/2015 11:29

Yeah, I think it's frustration at seeing such an awful situation rather than impatience with you. Desperation and hope that things be better for you...

Yes, other people existing will always be 'too much' and 'demanding' for someone who feels entitled in the way I suspect he does.

It's awful how other people have propped up and supported his terrible behaviour over the years. Sad

Dancingtothemusicoftime · 22/07/2015 11:29

Basically he knew the lengths she would go to to get him and that it would involve contacting you in some way so he gave her just enough to make her crazy enough to go for you in some way. He wanted you to know and he wanted her to contact you so he had no obvious responsibility for his behaviour and could manipulate you into, amongst other things, seeing him as the victim of a 'crazy' woman.

^ This.

Offred oh god, I think you have absolutely got to heart of all this. Her contacting me gave him the opportunity to tell me everything, immediately, thus validating his behaviour. I didn't support him enough, she was kinder, he is in a job he now hates, she 'got' that while I just -apparently - tell him to try and find ways of managing his situation. And yes, he described her as 'mad' and immediately emailed her to tell her so and to get out of his life. When I pointed out that it was HIM who had invited her back in, he said that he hadn't forced her and she had made her own choice to re-engage with him. So yes, you are right - he can never, ever be wrong. He is always he victim.

OP posts:
shovetheholly · 22/07/2015 11:35

Dancing said "It is analogous I think to my heart being on life-support and the machines being switched off but my heart battling on but gradually fading away"

What a beautiful but sad analogy.

I prefer to think of it that this heart you have is giving up, but thanks to a miracle cure - separation and divorce! - you're able to get a transplant. Of course, there's a lot of pain and recovery to be gone through, but it's by no means the end for you, girl!

I hear a lot in your posts about your DH's attractiveness, and the comments others have made about it. I think the thing to remember is that very old-fashioned saying, attractive is as attractive does. If those same women knew about his infidelity, I highly doubt he would appear to be quite such a prize!! You could give me David Gandy, but if I knew he was a cheat, I don't think I'd find him attractive at all.

I have been thinking a lot recently about a writer called Raimond Gaita. He's well worth looking up when you feel up to reading! He has this idea that remorse should be central to all of our ethical systems - and that it means something far deeper than a transient and rather instrumental contrition for wrongdoing that passes after a time. If we do something very wrong, if we wound someone else very deeply (physically or mentally), he believes that we have to build remorse into our lives in an incessant way that never ends. It should change who we are, and how we relate to the world. I think infidelity is that kind of wound, and I think this utter remorse is the one ground on which it is forgiveable. The fact that your DH has shown that his contrition is merely skin-deep, that it didn't mean enough to him not to contact the OW, tells you something very significant about the depth of his emotion. I think it is very easy for tender-hearted people to be very moved by tears and self-loathing, but if it isn't part of this much greater and more significant sense of remorse, to be honest it isn't that 'real'.

Offred · 22/07/2015 11:42

His internal narrative makes him entirely and humiliatingly pathetic IMO btw, not you, you are and always have been fighting and striving to build things. He's been trying to dismantle things all the time like some petulant toddler trying to get his mother's attention because he thinks she absolutely should not ever think of anything but him...

Offred · 22/07/2015 11:43

"What about me though... BUT ME though!"

Offred · 22/07/2015 11:47

And the upside for you really is that nothing will ever be as hard as keeping your life together and raising children while in a relationship with him. All the strength you've had in dealing with him up until now will be invaluable to you in leaving him, once your strength is focused on leaving him rather than supporting him you will absolutely become a force to be reckoned with and I don't doubt that given some time to regroup this is what will happen. He's like the wizard of OZ, looks big, scary and intimidating but behind the illusion is a small, weak and fundamentally flawed man.

Hissy · 22/07/2015 11:56

The lengths she would go to "get him"

No.

This is not even about him, the poor deluded soul thinks it is, but it's just that she sees him as a challenge, her own sad life so devoid of love, she has to take it, wreck it and scrawl her name on it.

He's an idiot.

One day you will dump him. And when she realises that she has acquired the target, he'll lose all lustre for her too.

I would pay to see the look on his face as his arse hits the pavement

Hissy · 22/07/2015 11:57

Offred, you are so right I feel. Super supportive and helpful posts. Flowers

chicaguapa · 22/07/2015 12:38

Sorry, I haven't RTFT but what jumps out at me is that he knew your worst fear was him rekindling his affair with OW and yet he actively made that fear come true by making contact with her to make himself feel better. Hmm

He is a lowlife. There really is no excuse for that whether he is grieving or not. The disrespect he has for you in insurmountable.

Your victory will come from showing him that you are a lot better than that. Good luck!

Offred · 22/07/2015 12:40

Thanks hissy. I agree she is definitely just getting all het up about her idea of him. I also think he's doing a job on her - whipping her up into a crazy lather over him with intense declarations and withdrawals carefully balanced to produce that effect. It is highly unlikely that she really does want the real him because really - what does he actually have to offer anyone else? He's just a master of manipulation and illusion. If the OW became the wife there would almost certainly be another OW, one who had different and threatening attributes to her that he could use in order to diminish her too.

He doesn't care about the attributes or issues with the people he is with beyond what he can use them for in his quest for worship from others IMO - very narcissistic behaviour.

Offred · 22/07/2015 12:46

This is quite good; samvak.tripod.com/faq76.html

Obviously would be stupid to try and diagnose someone with a personality disorder over the Internet but it's good to keep in mind that you may be dealing with a narcissist since his behaviour has certainly been narcissistic!

Norest · 22/07/2015 13:20

I dunno if this will help you at all, but I found when in an abusive situation (and this IS abusive) that I was so tired, confused and lacking in self-esteem that I kind of just 'took' the behaviour and tried to 'manage' it.

I just didn't have it in me to get - angry, assertive and expect good treatment and stick to that if I wasn't being treated well (saying you are angry and you deserve better etc is only words if you stay and the behaviour continues, unfortunately).

What I DID find the courage and strength for was wanting better for my child and knowing he did not deserve to be caught in this situation. I realised that by staying with this man I was not protecting my son, because of the horrible consequences on my mental health.

You have said really sadly of some of the deep affects this has alreay had on your children, not just the affair and horrific behaviour of him and the OW, but with his temper, trying to 'placate' him when he has public temper tantrums and so on.

Is there any way you can look to that and make a decision for your children?

I know you say you have protected them, and I am sure you have done what you could to try and smooth things over and soothe everyone, but the ultimate protection for them would be to rebuild your life and show them what an emotionally healthy parent looks like. You cannot control his behaviour unfortunately, but you can give your children at least the example of getting out of an abusive situation and recovering as time goes on.

They are at an age now where they will understand that, and hopefully it will go some way to mitigating the dangerous and abusive messages about men and fathers that your husband has drilled into them for most of their lives.

Also on a side-note some people do repeat patterns of the past. Not everyone, but some do. If your husband had any real interest in anyone other than himself he would be horrified he is repeating the behaviour he found so damaging with his own father and be doing everything in his power to overcome and change that behaviour, because his heart would break he is doing that to his own kids. But he isn't is he? It's all about him and his pain, his needs and his wants.

Whilst it is sad that his horrible upbringing probably played a role in making him so selfish and self-focused and narcsissitic that doesn't excuse him.

Actually it makes it worse because he ought to know how it feels and what he is doing to his kids. And he either refuses to see them as people in their own right who he is hurting, and yes being extremely emotionally toxic too (twenty years time what do you think they will be telling their therapists?), or he knows and his pain takes precedence. I don't know which is worse.

You are clearly ground down and tired and confused and I am not surprised he has chipped away at your self-esteem. But that can be rebuilt, and in the meantime maybe focus on the huge damage he is doing to your children and get fucking angry on their behalf. If you can't protect yourself from him, protect them until you get up enough willpower to include yourself in the people who ought to be protected.

Good luck.

AnyFucker · 22/07/2015 14:05

dancing you have to stop now

just stop

you cannot do any more

you cannot make him love you

he cannot treat you decently

he will never stop hurting you, so you will have to put an end to it

the OW may be the cruellest person on earth, but he has invited her into your life not once but twice knpwing how much damage his contact with her creates

just walk away, please

this man will destroy you if you let him

Sausagerollers · 22/07/2015 14:15

You seem to be prepared to forgive a lot because you appear to remain surprised that a very attractive man agreed to be your husband.
Let me tell you this, there is a VERY attractive Dad at our school, a clear cut 10 out of 10, but he is a tw*t. His wife is lovely, and whilst no supermodel is a fantastic person and just great to be around. I pity her for being married to her husband and wish she would move on from him, he's entitled, self serving and basically not very nice.
The more you tell us about your H, the worse he sounds. Please don't stay with him just because he's nice to look at; you deserve so much more.

honeyroar · 22/07/2015 14:37

You, the kids, you're all walking on egg shells to please this man and keep him with you. It's not right. Get your kids away to a more stable environment where they don't think it's normal to have to run after a sulking father in London. I can't see why you want to hold this family together it sounds poisonous.

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