Feminism - but is there some truth in the stereotype of gender roles?

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I understand that feminism has its place, 100%. The way women are treated in some parts of the world, (and I will agree), in the western world to an extent, is wrong. And feminism is needed to that effect.

What I can't get my head around is that on some level, generally speaking, I believe women are more suited to the stereotypical 'woman's jobs,' and likewise, men are suited to their jobs. I embrace the fact that I am the one staying at home and look after my kids while my husband works (and this is coming from someone who has a very successful career and earned pretty much the same as my husband). I love cooking his dinner and cleaning the house. I don't feel oppresed. I am also attracted to my husbnad because he embraces his stereotypical male role of the breadwinner. I feel proud of my role as a women and I am proud that it differs from my husband's general role.

I know that the point of feminism is that everyone should be free to do what they want, male or female, and that men, if they want, should have the right to stay home with the kids.

But does anyone agree that on some basic level, instinctive almost, that for the majority of people (again, not all), that women do have women desires that are typical of a women, and the same for men?

ie. women are generally better at cleaning and tidying and naturally take the reigns, men prefer heavy lifting and DIY, women will be more motherly with kids than men, etc. NB. I know this is not always the case, but I am speaking generally. I believe stereotypes in this instance, are based on natural differences between men and women that we will never get away from. (Again stressing that there are exceptions).

There is a big height, arm length and overall strength difference between me and my DH. Although we share boring tasks equally, he is better than me at cleaning… because it's a physical task and I am physically very different from him (as I am from lots of other women too). Despite my superior peripheral vision and his superior long distance vision (no idea if that's true but we'll go with it) we are both able to see when our home needs cleaning and we're both able to work out how to clean it…. he's quicker at it though.

Nicknack - it must be very interesting for you (as well as lovely) to see them growing up to be independent and different.

My granny once told me off when I was 10 years old because my teenage DB was still in bed at midday and I should have woken him up with a cup of tea. My Dsis (not a twin) would have felt bad and gone and done it straight away… I asked her why I should do that when he'd never brought me a cup of tea and refused…

I don't think either gender is necessarily better at cleaning

It would be really bizarre if it were the case that one gender was necessarily better at cleaning than the other! Bet the scientists are glad it's not the case - imagine trying to work out that particular puzzle.

how can you be genetically programmed to clean better?! for myself as a sahm i find the only reason i'm "better" at cooking and cleaning is because i do it more often nothing else..

All in the nurture i feel... little girls getting given dollies and playing mums etc

Not saying he's not an arsehole as I don't know the rest of your situation but you are lucky if you can concentrate on the house and kids without needing to work - most women need to do that plus work

Here you go, this illustrates what I posted about on the first page how only women have had a disgraceful attitude to me being a SAHM, but never had this from men who see the value to my DH and DD, this isn't for my benefit.

This quote was taken this evening from another thread.

SAHMs are lucky, not the father nor the child.

I certainly don't do all the cleaning and childcare on top of work, my dp does an equal share. If women are doing the bulk of the home and childcare as well as working (and I know many are), then that is an example of the harmful stereotypes some people here are supporting.
I would personally hate to be a SAHm mum (9 months of maternity leave worsened my depression to suicidal levels) but if you are a SAHm and happy with it then that is genuinely fantastic. Just don't tell me I'm genetically programmed to clean. To quite Sarah Millican 'I find it's easier to apologise for not cleaning, than to actually clean'

While I appreciate the views of social conditioning, I am still suggesting that as an adult who IS free to do what I like...my H wouldnt object to me having full time work again, or passing over the cleaning to him etc...I choose not to because it doesnt FEEL natural to me.

You seem to be acknowledging the existence of social conditioning, with accepting that it could have (read: definitely has) played a part in forming your views. When you talk about things not feeling 'natural' regarding division of labour in the household, that sounds like you've been heavily influenced by society to me.

only women have had a disgraceful attitude to me being a SAHM, but never had this from men who see the value to my DH and DD, this isn't for my benefit

Really? You don't know anyone whose husband comes home and says ' what have you done all day?' when things aren't perfect in the home? You've never seen anyone else on this board upset because their male partner has been placing unreasonable demands on them because being an SHAP is so 'easy'?

Your this is "disgraceful" comment directly quote this:

Not saying he's not an arsehole as I don't know the rest of your situation but you are lucky if you can concentrate on the house and kids without needing to work - most women need to do that plus work

Do you really think that's a disgraceful comment to make? Do you not think it's true that many women have to work AND do the house and kids stuff too, more so than men?

To answer a few comments directed at my posts earlier.. No I don't think women as a gender are pre programmed to be better at cleaning or cooking or general household tasks...
As a person who's main source of income has been derived from the construction industry, I can categorically say that cleaning and cooking are far, far, far easier, in fact headphones on ingredients out and a couple of hrs cooking is very cathartic, the same with cleaning..
I was brought up in a showroom standard house and I like to live like that too, so I make it so either with the help of my wife or I'll do it for myself..

The constant suggestion from middle class academic feminists that women should break free from the bonds of motherhood and free themselves from the patriarchy is an insult to all the women who actually find that being a SAHM is fine...

Feminists live in an ivory tower, where reality does not intrude, and the biochemical realities of the sex hormones are inconvenient to their arguments, so in the tradition of sophists throughout history, they deny whatever impedes on their flimsy arguments. They should add the hormone oxytocin to their list, too. Lactating women are flooded with it, hence the bonding process with their young...

Laurierf

Again you're illustrating another perfect example of the projected shit I get from women in real life too. Attitudes like yours are common from women but not once has a man expressed these to me (unless you are a man?)

Of course there are women in unhappy relationships, I'm not one of them. What has this to do with me and my situation? I am not answerable to, or responsible for all women!

Should I be rejecting what's right for us because it's not right for others? It's this assertion that comes up time and time again when Feminism is raised and why I don't identify with the term.

I believe it is the right of couples to choose the old traditional lifestyle without others looking down on that, or seeing our happy relationship as a comment on, or need to be changed because of unhappy ones.

It is common to come up against women who believe I am betraying the women who fought to change the expectation of it.

Women do it all but who aren't in equal marriages and can't begin to appreciate that all aspects of home and financing a home are joint so see SAHM's as benefitting from not working, not that the man or children do too so they judge SAHMs as being 'lucky' as if this is purely for her! This is more a reflection of their relationship than mine. I'm happy, they aren't.

MY relationship is a with a man who loves and respects my contribution to our house he would be just as unlikely to see a 'perfect' house as the things that make it imperfect as because of it his time at home when I was purely a SAHM meant this was purely leisure time.

My relationship is not relevant to all those who are in unequal relationships and I fail to see why you think it would be?

Do "academic feminists" constantly suggest women should break free from the bonds of motherhood?! That's crazy if they do. But I'm not sure it's particularly relevant to this discussion is it, amongst a mixture of people rather than "academic feminists"? Do sex hormones make you instinctively better at cleaning and cooking? No. Are these 'naturally' more 'womanly tasks'? No. If you have the chance to stay at home and concentrate on the home and that makes you happy - great. But it's got nothing to do with your "womanliness".

Joysmum - but no one is asking you to be responsible for the happiness of other women! No one is saying the OP is wrong to choose the life she has. But you are lucky that you are able to do what you want to do and other women have told you that… why do think that's disgraceful?

Joy Laurie isn't giving you any 'projected shit', or any kind of 'attitude'.

She asked you perfectly straightforward questions.

If this exchange is at all representative, perhaps the 'attitude' you believe you're getting from other women is simply your own paranoia?

Your belief that men somehow support your choices and respect them is painfully naive, it's more likely that they don't give a fuck what you do, or they like the idea of a SAH wife running round after them.

If you believe in equal rights based on the principle of equality of the sexes then you're a feminist. If you're genuinely not then you need to hand back your right to education, to vote, to work etc.

Frank I must be imagining all those feminists I know who are SAHMs and are happy with their personal setup

It annoys me a bit when people come out with things like human behaviour etc is 100% socialised. Right so humans as a species have existed for around 200,000 years and the first of the hominins are expected to have appeared 5+ million years ago, but suddenly because we have cars and computers in this tiny part of human existence there is nothing influencing our behaviours other than society oh no there are no hormones, no biochemical pathways no genetic coding. Who knows many even the human microbiodome affects behaviour we know very little about it. I mean every other animal has differences between the sexes many humans are special? I can understand someone having that viewpoint if they are religious.

Now don't get me wrong it's annoying when people think males or females are 'hard wired' for modern day stuff like wiring a plug??? I'm sorry what? why would your sex matter when arranging wires why would such a behaviour be imprinted on the human psyche. Also men have worn makeup throughout history. There are groups of people that live today in a manner closer to our ancestors where the men use 'makeup' it is simply used to convey a message to accentuate certain features either to make you look scary, attractive or to just stand out to signify importance.

My belief is that what differences there are between the 2 genders are more basic such as aggression, risk taking, potentially bonding and competitiveness etc. To be honest the differences don't really make all that difference in grand scheme of things but it would be nice if we could just accept it and move on.

It doesn't really matter what is innate and what is socialised (and the blurred line between) as long as (1) there are women (and men) who do not fit the stereotypes and are held back by them and (2) the work and roles that women are stereotypically supposed to enjoy or be good at is denigrated (see comments about how "easy" cooking and cleaning are). women in particular experience significant disadvantage and discrimination through both these factors

The constant suggestion from middle class academic feminists that women should break free from the bonds of motherhood and free themselves from the patriarchy is an insult to all the women who actually find that being a SAHM is fine...

You betray yourself as ignorant of feminism Frank, as feminism has always supported women's right to define their own life and make their own choices. Feminists have worked to explain the experience and value of motherhood and just what it is that mothers do, to a culture that has always devalued it.
Early feminists emphasised the importance of work because women were being blocked from the workplace, and even now experience sexism and unequal pay.

It's as much a 'feminist' choice to be a SAHM as it to run a company. It's patriarchal or rather sexist to demean and minimise the role of SAHMs, not feminist.

Feminists live in an ivory tower, where reality does not intrude, and the biochemical realities of the sex hormones are inconvenient to their arguments, so in the tradition of sophists throughout history, they deny whatever impedes on their flimsy arguments.

All women are feminists Frank, have you ever met one who didn't believe in equality? Even women living in oppressive regimes in the East, how many don't believe in their hearts they're equal to men, while obeying rules that subjugate them?

Your ideas about middle-class feminists are not only laughably bizarre but essentially sexist. If you're going to contribute to a discussion on feminism it might help to have a passing acquaintance with the subject.

My belief is that what differences there are between the 2 genders are more basic such as aggression, risk taking, potentially bonding and competitiveness etc

What are you basing that belief on?

If we do just accept that… what do you mean by 'moving on' from it?

I have not read the other thread, but I don't see anything wrong with saying that you're lucky because you can do what you want to do. Or what I'm I missing?

when DH was a SAHD, I thought he was lucky that he got to spend so much time with DS and didn't have to worry about earning money. I also thought I was lucky because I didn't have to worry about the things he took care of. But apparently this is a disgraceful opinion?

Firstly sorry don't know why my maybe's came out as many.

Laurief I am just basing this belief on what we currently know, Testosterone is a hormone which has higher presence in males generally. It increases aggression, risk taking and competitive behaviour. There is a lot we don't know about the human body it is very complex and there are new revelations all the time.

By moving on I mean approaching certain things with peoples sex in mind for example aggression, we accept that most criminals are men, most violent act are carried out by men. What I like is aggression to not be seen as a bad thing but for it to be used in more purposeful ways. An example of this is martial arts aggression and competitiveness is practiced in a safe controlled environment with the backing of a strong moral code/ethos provided by a good role model all the while learning self control, discipline and respect has really helped some of the boys which I work with.

That's a massively simplistic interpretation of how testosterone affects behaviour - you simply cannot cut out environment in that way.

By moving on I mean approaching certain things with peoples sex in mind for example aggression, we accept that most criminals are men, most violent act are carried out by men. What I like is aggression to not be seen as a bad thing but for it to be used in more purposeful ways. An example of this is martial arts

Surely this is equally true of females? If aggression is a good and purposeful thing, surely we should be encouraging it in girls as much as boys?

I think HapShawl's point is a good one so I shall repeat it.

It doesn't really matter what is innate and what is socialised (and the blurred line between) as long as (1) there are women (and men) who do not fit the stereotypes and are held back by them and (2) the work and roles that women are stereotypically supposed to enjoy or be good at is denigrated (see comments about how "easy" cooking and cleaning are). women in particular experience significant disadvantage and discrimination through both these factors

I know it's simplistic but I am using only as a brief example.

Aggression is neither good or bad it just is, it is part of us so we might as well direct it towards less destructive aims.

I don't see how it can be equally true of females? Society does not have a massive problem with excessive female violence, female prisons of not overrun with criminals (at least not ones in there due to violent behaviour)

Are not*

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