Feminism - but is there some truth in the stereotype of gender roles?

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I understand that feminism has its place, 100%. The way women are treated in some parts of the world, (and I will agree), in the western world to an extent, is wrong. And feminism is needed to that effect.

What I can't get my head around is that on some level, generally speaking, I believe women are more suited to the stereotypical 'woman's jobs,' and likewise, men are suited to their jobs. I embrace the fact that I am the one staying at home and look after my kids while my husband works (and this is coming from someone who has a very successful career and earned pretty much the same as my husband). I love cooking his dinner and cleaning the house. I don't feel oppresed. I am also attracted to my husbnad because he embraces his stereotypical male role of the breadwinner. I feel proud of my role as a women and I am proud that it differs from my husband's general role.

I know that the point of feminism is that everyone should be free to do what they want, male or female, and that men, if they want, should have the right to stay home with the kids.

But does anyone agree that on some basic level, instinctive almost, that for the majority of people (again, not all), that women do have women desires that are typical of a women, and the same for men?

ie. women are generally better at cleaning and tidying and naturally take the reigns, men prefer heavy lifting and DIY, women will be more motherly with kids than men, etc. NB. I know this is not always the case, but I am speaking generally. I believe stereotypes in this instance, are based on natural differences between men and women that we will never get away from. (Again stressing that there are exceptions).

My DS like Minecraft, football, dancing, Lego, wearing dresses, Frozen and wrestling. What dies that say for his hardwiring? One thing's for sure - plenty of people try to embarrass a 4 year old boy for dancing his heart out to 'let it go.' Grown adults try to shame a small child for enjoying himself. Why??

My DD is the only one in our household who's ever had to play football. She's never tried to make DH watch it.

Yes, at the age of 5 so long as you keep all doors open, who knows where her talents and abilities will take her.

I went to a very academic, feminist girls' school, not only did we have 8 compulsory O levels, you had to do 2 sciences whether you liked them or not. I didn't like it at the time, but I appreciate it now.

My father taught my sister and me to how to saw wood properly, how to hammer in nails straight, put in screws, wire plugs, mow the lawn, change tyres etc.

If you're the one responsible for those things Farnsworth in your house, it's your job to teach her.

If people are going to use the term 'hard-wired' they really need to define it.

Maybe every literate man and woman should be sent a copy of Delusions of Gender in the post and given and examined to make sure they've read it. Anyone who is still spouting about hardwiring and 'desires that are typical of a woman', and who still seems confused about why women are apparently 'naturally attracted' to low-status activities like cleaning, care of the elderly and children, should have to read through the entire bibliography.

Christ, there was a thread recently about 'ways in which Mn differs from the real world ' - I do not meet women who spout this kind of shit in real life. I have no one, male or female, in my life who genuinely believes that the possession of a vagina makes the owner more attuned to changing nappies and tidying.

neither of us instinctively enjoy doing them so we naturally share them because we work as a team

I dunno - I enjoy cooking, so I do the most of the family meals (my dad was a really good cook, although my mum did most of the actual cooking). I might not go so far as to say I enjoy ironing, but I usually but a DVD on while doing it so a load of ironing passes the time fairly pleasantly. God, I need to get out more....

My DW and I plod along quite well housework-wise. We don't have any rota as such, just a general understanding that things get done when the need done, and neither one of us is responsible for any particular chore. DW does the bills, though.

When people say things like "it's obvous differences are hard wired etc because my daughter loves dolls even though I didn't encourage her..." They are not taking into account:

1. You might not be enforcing gender stereotypes but the rest of society is (and you probably are unconsciously.) As mentioned studies have proven people speak differently to a baby depending whether they think it's a girl or a boy. I've seen for myself that strangers interact with my dd very differently depending on how she is dressed.

1. Even if our society was bias free and there was no gender stereotyping, some girls will still love dolls. And so will some boys. Some won't. Nobody (afaik) is saying that in an entirely gender free world, no girls will want to play with dolls and all boys will.

Yes, at the age of 5 so long as you keep all doors open, who knows where her talents and abilities will take her.

Nobel Prize in Botanics - bet you £10....

I have no one, male or female, in my life who genuinely believes that the possession of a vagina makes the owner more attuned to changing nappies and tidying.

My dp's parents hold these views unfortunately.

You might not be enforcing gender stereotypes but the rest of society is (and you probably are unconsciously.)

That's an excellent point, but my corollary to that would be that we live in a quite isolated place, so the societal influences she might have (other children at a large school, other families in a densely populated area) aren't really there to the same extent as they may be for children in an urban or suburban area, so our influence should be proportionately greater?

Doubtful Farnsworth, unless she never watches tv, reads a book, goes to friends' houses. Gender stereotyping is everywhere.

Does she watch TV, read/look at books? These are ways that societal "norms" can be picked up. Plus interacting with her peers and teachers at school.

Does she watch TV, read/look at books? These are ways that societal "norms" can be picked up. Plus interacting with her peers and teachers at school.

Not at school yet, and doesn't watch much TV (I have tried and tried....). Loves books, though.

A love of flowers in one 5 year old girl probably doesn't say much about the presence of gender stereotyping and social constructs one way or the other. Just cos she likes them doesn't mean the next ten girls will - I'm not convinced by the notion of 'hardwiring' either.

Having parents who think that picking flowers is 'girly' is reinforcing the stereotype. Lots of young boys like picking flowers too, before they get told it's 'girly'.

I don't really care whether "most" people of each gender are happy conforming to the prevailing stereotypes. I know I don't. Therefore I deduce there will be others of both sexes who are like me. Therefore we should do all we can to break the stereotype so that we can all be happy doing what suits us as individuals not prescribed by our gender.

A love of flowers in one 5 year old girl probably doesn't say much about the presence of gender stereotyping and social constructs one way or the other.

No I don't think it does

Plus, as I said (or tried to say) in my first post, there will be some girls who do like traditional girly things and who would have done so without the presence of gender stereotyping, and there's nothing wrong with that but it doesn't make that thing innately girly, if that makes sense.

In fact my DS also loves flowers - I buy him bunches from Tesco as a treat. I don't understand why only girls would like flowers - how does that work?

I was pondering that too - do parents' who have a son who doesn't care for football but likes picking flowers categorise him as 'girly'? or just, oh well footies not his thing, nice he likes nature'

Having parents who think that picking flowers is 'girly' is reinforcing the stereotype. Lots of young boys like picking flowers too, before they get told it's 'girly'.

And what's wrong with 'girly'? Why should 'girly' be pejorative? 'Girly' could also mean nurturing, tolerant, caring, perceptive...

And what's wrong with 'girly'? Why should 'girly' be pejorative? 'Girly' could also mean nurturing, tolerant, caring, perceptive…

There is nothing wrong with being nurturing, tolerant, caring and perceptive clearly. What's that got to do with being a girl?

Plus, as I said (or tried to say) in my first post, there will be some girls who do like traditional girly things and who would have done so without the presence of gender stereotyping, and there's nothing wrong with that but it doesn't make that thing innately girly, if that makes sense.

Well, that would fit with what I was saying (or trying to say :) ) about my DD - it's just what she likes. Nothing to do with gender stereotyping, hardwiring, or whatever. It's just what she likes :)

'Girly' shouldn't be pejorative but in our society unfortunately it is, particularly when used for a boy. 'Throw like a girl' is not a compliment.

Why should 'girly' mean caring? Are girls 'naturally' caring?

'girley' shouldn't be a perjorative, but it too often is. It's a descriptor which tends to reinforce stereotypes (usually in the direction of 'girls' stuff being perceived as a bit meh relative to 'boys') so probably best avoided.

There is nothing wrong with being nurturing, tolerant, caring and perceptive clearly. What's that got to do with being a girl?

Because a lot of you seem to be falling into the trap of accepting gender stereotypes yourselves. You've accepted that 'girly' is a negative without challenging that.