Feminism - but is there some truth in the stereotype of gender roles?

[loveyoumore2]

I understand that feminism has its place, 100%. The way women are treated in some parts of the world, (and I will agree), in the western world to an extent, is wrong. And feminism is needed to that effect.

What I can't get my head around is that on some level, generally speaking, I believe women are more suited to the stereotypical 'woman's jobs,' and likewise, men are suited to their jobs. I embrace the fact that I am the one staying at home and look after my kids while my husband works (and this is coming from someone who has a very successful career and earned pretty much the same as my husband). I love cooking his dinner and cleaning the house. I don't feel oppresed. I am also attracted to my husbnad because he embraces his stereotypical male role of the breadwinner. I feel proud of my role as a women and I am proud that it differs from my husband's general role.

I know that the point of feminism is that everyone should be free to do what they want, male or female, and that men, if they want, should have the right to stay home with the kids.

But does anyone agree that on some basic level, instinctive almost, that for the majority of people (again, not all), that women do have women desires that are typical of a women, and the same for men?

ie. women are generally better at cleaning and tidying and naturally take the reigns, men prefer heavy lifting and DIY, women will be more motherly with kids than men, etc. NB. I know this is not always the case, but I am speaking generally. I believe stereotypes in this instance, are based on natural differences between men and women that we will never get away from. (Again stressing that there are exceptions).

I can quite enjoy cleaning. It's the tidying and picking up all the shit off the floor first that I hate. Everyone has to help tidy in this house otherwise it wouldn't get done at all.

Jesus wept.
I'll certainly take it that in the absence of physical training, the average man can lift a heavier load than the average woman. But prefer it?!!!
Do men, outside of the gym, wander around lifting heavy loads shouting "I'm da man" feeling super smug?

They tidying thing is bollocks. But in every other primate, women do the bulk of childrearing. I don't see what is so different t about humans that would change this for us.

And to say there are no biological differences which might explain women doing childcare etc is also rubbish - just look at the biology behind breastfeeding, for instance.

Other animals also have mothers who don't care about their kids, as well as "supermums"

As much as I would like to say there are no differences whatsoever, I don't quite believe it.

I do believe that enforced gender stereotyping does give men and women a different outlook on life, to some degree, and that degree differs from person to person.

what about...women wear make up...doesn't appeal to men. women enjoy shopping...mos men don't. women are generally more emotional...men less so.

the reasons why men are less emtinal as women have more hormonal changes...because they are different to men. as a result, the stereotpyical womena who enjoys wearing lipstick and wandering round the shops when it's period time... turns into a biological fact...surely?

Is anyone else reading and thinking they can't be arsed?

vicacia well, that's a mature comment...

Yes Vivacia.

Six words:

Delusions of Gender by Cordelia Fine

I know how you feel

I mow the grass - because we have a 'man-size' mower and a fair bit of ground and the stingy bitch won't sanction a ride-on

There's no way my wife could do it.

Similarly, I boarded out the rooms (ahead of the palsterer (also a man) skimming) because my wife wouldn't have been able to lift them.

All other domestic chores are split pretty evenly (I probably do more actually)

As long as everyone does what they're able to.........

Is there a big book of stereotypes that I haven't read?

I've no idea what the link is between periods and shopping, why would that even make sense?

erm nope

I can think of plenty of men who like to wear make up. I don't like to wear make up. I don't like shopping, my (male) partner does. I can give you a contrasting anecdote for each of yours. Which to me suggests that none of these things are innate.

As for men not being emotional, well what is your basis for that sweeping statement? You don't think that any men are emotional, are they all soulless automatons?

Monthly hormonal changes in women may bring about mood changes. Many other things bring about mood changes including testosterone. That doesn't mean women are more emotional than men. It means that women who are post puberty and pre menopausal may be likely to experience mood changes. I have never put on make up and wandered the shops when pre-menstrual - I had no idea that was an expected gender stereotype.

As for biological causes of being more attuned to childcare... Certainly women have to bear children and give birth. Breastfeeding is also a uniquely female task. But I still don't see why that means that women are innately suited to childcare? Many many women in the UK choose to formula feed and share feeding tasks with their parters (presumably mostly male). Is that abnormal?

culture it's not 'abnormal' but it's still showing that women are NATURALLY more associated with a child's health and wellbeing, if only at the first stage of a baby's life. I'm not saying that it HAS to be that way, and there are many men who are far better at caring for their child than many women, BUT, when looking at it biologically, it is clear that a women's role IS more connected with the child than the male.

And yes, monthly mood changes = more emotional. Women are generally more emotional than men.

It's not a criticism of either gender, jut a fact.

Disagree OP. From a child I've always played with traditionally "masculine" toys, like construction sets, garages, cars...when I got older I liked science kits and dinosaurs. I was never really interested in "girly" toys like dolls. I used to love playing outside, and when I got a bit older again I loved gaming, particularly shooters. My mum used to jokingly refer to me as "her son" because interests wise, I'm pretty "masculine". I also can't clean very well and am the complete opposite of a domestic goddess. I CAN cook, but that's it - ironing, hoovering I'm totally crap at. Manly jobs like DIY though I'm fine with. (And no, I'm not a lesbian, before someone asks that again).

None of this makes me any less of a woman. I'm very glad I had open minded parents who didn't make me feel like a massive freak growing up. I do wonder if my parents had tried to condition me into being more "feminine" whether I would have accepted it or rebelled.

Has anyone else noticed how black people are just different to white people? I'm not being racist, it's just that there are obvious biological differences.

I realise my previous post conflicts with my name As an adult, I'm a funny oxymoron of LOOKING very girly (I like makeup, dresses, nails etc) while having the interests of a 16 year old boy

I'm not criticising black people, but obviously they are just better suited to cleaning and white people are better suited to managing and leading.
Obviously there are exceptions.

"It's not a criticism of either gender, jut a fact."

You do know that saying something doesn't make it a fact? And that men have hormonal cycles as well...

I dislike DIY, flat packs, map reading, motorway driving, AND dislike cleaning, tidying, ironing, hoovering, 'personal grooming'.

What does that make me?

Miserable

Has anyone else heard of the experiments done with apes and monkeys. They gave them some traditionally male and traditionally female toys, the males played with the male toys more and the females played with the female toys more. I'll try to find it.

I used to thing differences between genders were all environmental, then I had male and female children. While I am a long way from the op I have come to believe many differences between them are innate.

"Look at a boy and a girl from birth... my parents let me choose whatever toys I wanted and my brother the same... he often played with barbie dolls and I often played with a train set...but our 'favourite' toys were clasically boy and classically girl, respectively. this was NOT forced on us by my parents in any way."

Research shows that, statistically, parents do treat boy and girl babies very differently. And other people certainly do; in studies the same baby is treated differently by strange adults if it's dressed as a girl from if it's dressed as a boy. I remember one Mumsnetter whose preverbal DC (dressed in gender-neutral clothes) toddled along on a shopping trip carrying a basket and attracted comments of either "what a big strong boy, helping Mummy with the basket" or "She's starting early with the shopping bug, then, hahaha". Small children are exposed to this all the time in almost every interaction they have with anyone.

If you have a daughter with you and you encounter a friend you've not seen for a while or who doesn't know her well, I can 95% guarantee you that the first comment they make to her will be about her appearance -- how pretty she looks, or how nice what she's wearing is, or how her hair's done.

Statistically, yes, there are differences on a population level between men and women, but (A) the majority of this is down to the incredible plasticity of the human brain. If dozens of small interactions each day from babyhood deliver the message that girls are like this and boys are like that then that has a powerful effect on the developing brain, and (B) for almost all traits the differences are tiny and of absolutely no value in predicting anything about any individual woman or man.

In addition to the Cornelia Fine book already recommended, Lise Eliot's Pink Brain, Blue Brain is very good. Dr Eliot is a neuroscientist who has reviewed all the studies on gender and is able to explain the science in a very accessible way.

If cooking, cleaning and rearing is children is innate, what does it say about me that I leave most of the cooking and cleaning to DH and go to work while he looks after DD? Am I not not natural woman? Absolute bollocks.