Feminism - but is there some truth in the stereotype of gender roles?

[loveyoumore2]

I understand that feminism has its place, 100%. The way women are treated in some parts of the world, (and I will agree), in the western world to an extent, is wrong. And feminism is needed to that effect.

What I can't get my head around is that on some level, generally speaking, I believe women are more suited to the stereotypical 'woman's jobs,' and likewise, men are suited to their jobs. I embrace the fact that I am the one staying at home and look after my kids while my husband works (and this is coming from someone who has a very successful career and earned pretty much the same as my husband). I love cooking his dinner and cleaning the house. I don't feel oppresed. I am also attracted to my husbnad because he embraces his stereotypical male role of the breadwinner. I feel proud of my role as a women and I am proud that it differs from my husband's general role.

I know that the point of feminism is that everyone should be free to do what they want, male or female, and that men, if they want, should have the right to stay home with the kids.

But does anyone agree that on some basic level, instinctive almost, that for the majority of people (again, not all), that women do have women desires that are typical of a women, and the same for men?

ie. women are generally better at cleaning and tidying and naturally take the reigns, men prefer heavy lifting and DIY, women will be more motherly with kids than men, etc. NB. I know this is not always the case, but I am speaking generally. I believe stereotypes in this instance, are based on natural differences between men and women that we will never get away from. (Again stressing that there are exceptions).

The two genders in our current society are treated as different. Why that is the case is up for discussion. Plenty of people think that gender is wholly a social construct. In contrast, a person's sex is a matter of biological fact. Differences exist between people based on their sex eg women get screened for cervical cancer, men for prostate cancer etc. I believe that there should be no difference in how people are treated based on their perceived gender roles.

Your "hypocritical" comment is interesting. So we should not be able to discuss reasons why harmful gender stereotyping exists? For danger of being labelled whiney hypocrites and therefore deserving of being ignored? I don't see that it is inconsistent to discuss where these stereotypes come from, whilst also pointing out that society as a whole would benefit from breaking those stereotypes down.

Oh god, OP, reading posts like yours make me think I must be a man. Make-up, shopping, loving cleaning and tidying... What's more, oddly enough I do enjoy lifting heavy things, perverse of me I know, but much more fun that cleaning and tidying.

But I think it is brilliant that you love doing all that stuff, way to go

Why have they come from men?!

Historically, men have ruled and dominated the world for the last 4,000 years.

Our entire culture has been defined how men chose to define it, and that includes gender roles. Conceptions of masculinity and femininity have been constructed by men to their own advantage.

Women, even now, persist in believing that childcare and housework are 'naturally' their role, because that's what men have been telling them for the last 4,000 years.

Except, ya know, about 150 years ago 'whining' feminists said, 'Enough boys' and set out to change it.

But does anyone agree that on some basic level, instinctive almost, that for the majority of people (again, not all), that women do have women desires that are typical of a women, and the same for men?

ie. women are generally better at cleaning and tidying and naturally take the reigns, men prefer heavy lifting and DIY, women will be more motherly with kids than men, etc. NB. I know this is not always the case, but I am speaking generally. I believe stereotypes in this instance, are based on natural differences between men and women that we will never get away from. (Again stressing that there are exceptions).

So, I know that you accept that I have a right to choose an alternative lifestyle. I get that. However, you still seem to think that I'm an exception because I don't fit your stereotype? An unnatural exception? An unwomanly exception? Because I find little fulfilment in domesticity?

I think you're utterly, utterly wrong on this one!

hypocritical of feminists to blame men for the stereotypes but then say that feminism is to benefit men, too? how does that add up?

Hang on ...
You seem to think feminism is about breaking through gender stereotypes to benefit women AT MEN'S EXPENSE.

This means you clearly think gender stereotypes are good for men. And bad for women.

I'm not clear on why you want to support such a situation.

But I'm happy to tell you feminism says the stereotypes are bad for men, too.

What happens when little boys are born to be ballet stars?
What happens when a man doesn't want to fight?
Why have Western men got to wear trousers?
What do people think about men choosing to work with young children?
What do people say to boys who cry?

... and so on. Feminists aren't the hypocrites here

I think the reason the women you know like cleaning (really!) and being take care of is because similar people tend to hang out together. Almost all my female friends and family with children work full-time (with the exception of my SILs) this is because family - we were brought up that way - and friends - we met at college or work & have similar life experiences/life attitudes

So I don't think you can extrapolate from your friends' attitudes to all women!

Your post makes feminists sound like a load of whining women.

My 16 yo son is a feminist...

The reason feminism benefits men isthat Iit releases them from the same narrow gender descriptors as it does women.

My friend was a sahd. He found it terribly lonely because he wasn't welcomed at the mother and baby groups as he was viewed with suspicion. He wasn't invited round for lunch or to play, so his daughter missed out too.

Lots of men I know don't like football and other people want to know "what's wrong" with them. I saw a friend yesterday who said he doesn't trust men who don't like football.

One of my friends got dumped when he cried at a film because his newish girlfriend was put off by it and didn't want to be with a wuss or a wimp or someone who just wasn't manly.

My exh was treated really badly by pretty much everyone when our daughter was born prem and nearly died. They assumed that because he was a man he wouldn't feel it in the same way.

Boys/men aren't taught to cook/clean/iron/use a washing machine because they'll have a wife to do it for them one day, which denies them very basic self care skills needed to live as a fully functioning independent adult.

i think it's hypocritical of feminists to blame men for the stereotypes but then say that feminism is to benefit men, too? how does that add up?

Men created the stereotypes because we live in a patriarchal society.

The stereotypes originally benefitted men because they enabled men to go out and work and have independence and wealth, whilst ensuring that a woman didn't because she didn't have the financial wherewithall or societal support required to live independently (there are still many people who regard single women as having failed, yet the studies all show that single women are the happiest and live longest). So a man never had to worry that his cook/cleaner would leave him because she couldn't. Thus ensuring that he would be fed and clothed and able to work and make money.

Also, it benefitted the economy to have women stay at home cooking and cleaning so that men could go out and earn money without having to worry about those things.

It could quite easily have been constructed the other way round and, in some cultures/societies is.

It's an organisational structure that was created to benefit the wealth if the country and the economy. The only way to get people to accept it was to make them believe it was natural law. When it isn't.

Some people (men and women) will have a skill/preference in a steretypically gendered direction. Someone finds satisfaction in cleaning and ironing. Others love gardening and diy.

The problem with making out it's inherent is that is it denies people (men and women) the recognition of those other aspects of themselves, or other ways of being.

I have not read the whole thread but what you say OP is something I have been pondering a while. When I read the threads on the Feminist section I see a group of people with a common interest who tend to agree with each other but what I read does not resonate with me or the friends I spend time with.I think like minded people tend to group together and get a skewed perspective on the rest of society. Of my group of closest friends 2 of them choose to work because they love their jobs (GP/Vet) and would find full time SAHM excruciating, 3 of them are working ('because I have to') but would have prefered to have been a SAHM and 6 of them are SAHM but sometimes doing a few hours a week of stuff like invoices for husbands business or card making,pottery.bookkeeping for local charity etc. The 2 working friends would identify strongly with feminism and the others would fit totally into the stereotype you describe and indeed embrace it. They would have hated for their husbands to SAH whilst they had worked.
I fall between the 2 camps as I had always wanted to be a SAHM and we had 3 children within 3.5 years so I reduced my hours after each child til I just worked one long day a week and DH worked a 4 day week. However I also love my job and now work pretty much full time whilst DH does the cooking/shopping and childcare.(and works FT from home)
Despite this I still feel that women are naturally more nurturing(as a general rule) We are the ones who give birth and have the capacity to feed our babies which a male of the species does not have. The majority of women in our world do not argue with this and do not want it to be different. What they do want is for that role to be esteemed and promoted to the place of importance that it should be. I find it hard to believe that anyone would love cleaning and ironing but I do know that when my husband had to manage the 3 pre-school kids and the household stuff for just one day a week whilst I worked, he fast gained a healthy respect for all that that involved and realised that a day at work was a walk in the park in comparison!!
I know this is a bit rambling but what I am trying to say is that I agree with OPs musings and find the debate really interesting.

vdb but you're making the same point as the 'feminists', not agreeing with the op surely?

The very fact you know women who are equally satisfied in all roles supports the idea that peope are not as limited as gender stereotypes suggest. Not that the stereotypes are right and those other women are a bit unusual for challenging them.

The reason the sahms etcc don't argue against it is because they identify with it and it doesn't restrict them, not because it's right.

The reason the career women fight against it is because they are 'naturally' different and it could restrict them, not because they are ardent feminists And are just being objectionable somehow.

Stereotypes are lazy and restrictive. Some people fit them, others don't. They are pointless.

Or what cailin said!

Yes, cailin, and that includes stereotypes about feminists! Feminism's a philosophy, not a club with rules and a uniform It's not even restricted by gender - something which the hard-of-thinking find a little confusing.

In fact, if you really had to sum up feminism's core principles in a short sentence, it would be "gender discrimination is unnecessary & harmful". This precept tends to be supported by more women than men because gender discrimination harms women more than men, overall. But it is always recognised that men are harmed by it, too.

I wonder how anti-feminists would feel if they had to live in one of the many societies where women are compelled to act as domestic & sexual servants to men, their movements restricted, and men compelled to enforce this?

there are always some women who benefit from the patriarchy. a lot of women opposed the suffragists, for example, for this reason

I think the debate is weaker for being confined to discussing "nature vs nurture".

I have identical twin girls and despite having exactly the same dna and being raised together with exactly the same experiences they are completely different people. So in my experience neither nature nor nurture plays a significant role in preferences. This leads me to believe that personality development is far more complex than we currently understand and maybe our personality defines how much of a "people pleaser" we are and therefore how much we are prepared to adapt to fit the gender norms.

I'm still thinking this through which is why it rambles along, but I don't agree that anything is inherent or hardwired - otherwise both my girls would show these traits indentically in the same way as their other physical features.

Ugh. What a thoroughly depressing OP.

But does anyone agree that on some basic level, instinctive almost, that for the majority of people (again, not all), that women do have women desires that are typical of a women, and the same for men?

Woman desires such as cleaning and cooking? No.

I hope my dc do not grow up believing this.

Very interesting, nicknack! I agree with you about personality being poorly understood as yet.

Ugh. What a thoroughly depressing OP

Oh I don't know, HuftysTrain, I'm jealous of someone who enjoys housework.

I think it is impossible for for identical twins to be raised with exactly the same experiences but, yes, I do also agree with nicknack that personality is poorly understood… this idea that women are 'naturally' or 'instinctively' like this and men are like that… come on… look at the people around you, you must clearly see a diversity of behaviours, attitudes, interests, desires etc. irrespective of what gender they are and what tasks they are performing in their daily life, surely?

Fair point that their experiences are not exactly the same, but I was thinking along the lines of the experiances and expectations that influence our view of gender.

That's not very clear sorry, I guess for example mil refers to all her DGD's as "pretty princesses" and DGS's as "little soldiers" and they are both equally exposed to this, but neither of them want to be a princess (although one tells me she is a queen). For the record the other is currently convinced she is a dog! I also find that they are told not to run around and to stay clean a lot more than their male cousins. This is what I meant by experiences and I hope that's a little clearer

I consider my job as a parent is to encourage a wide range of skills and experiences and to support them in the ones they enjoy regardless of gender norms.

I have male friends who love swing dancingandmale friends who don't.

Does this mean that swing dancing is something men Iinstinctively like and some of my friends are going against their biological instincts? Or does it mean they don't and some ofmy friends are going aagainst their biological intincts?

Why can it not just be "some people like/enjoy/are good at X, and some people are do/are not"?

Why does it have to be a gendered thing?

I haven't heard that, but thre are some physical gendered differences, we can see that already.

But it's a big leap to extrapolate from that that men don't experience emotions and women like housework, isn't it?