would you end a fledgling relationship over this?

[FolkGirl]

I've been seeing someone for about 3 months. A couple of weeks ago i was unsure if I should end it over my own insecurities for his sake. I tried to, he became upset and persuaded me that I need to take a chance on another person at some point and that he was only interested in me. I'm going to preface this with the tired description of him as a really sweet guy, loads of friends close to his family, very respectable yada yada that I know means nothing.

So a couple of conversations/throwaway comments over the last week have made me question things. Again.

My boundaries are a bit shit, so I'm trying to work on those and it's finding the balance between, "you deserve better than that" and "fgs, FG, he's only human!".

So...

A comment that when he and his wife were still together, he and a couple of his friends/colleagues really fancied a very attractive woman at work and they used to flirt with/talk about her (I can imagine what was said). Basically, being a bit lechy. He said they were all in relationships so there was no intent there. And when they realised just how much younger she was, it felt a bit wrong. "Just harmless banter" though. Just feels very disrespectful to the young woman and his wife, although sthe woman flirted too. We all flirt at work a little, but it just felt a bit seedy. Timescales wise this would have been about 3 years ago. But he will still meet a lot of new young very attractive women. It goes with the job. Not sure I want to be with someone who is looking and flirting that openly.

In same conversation, he said it was hard letting go of wanting to be with a young (e.g. 25 yo) woman. He's early 40s. He said that (before meeting me, of course...) he had to remind himself that that attractive young woman he'd just seen wouldn't be interested so he had to look at older women seriously instead. I kind of feel like I've been 'settled for' because he's realised he can't do any better and get the sort of woman he wants anymore (which is one of my big hang ups because I was told that was all I'd ever be good for).

There are a couple of other little things that just don't sit quite right with me. But I don't know if that's just me and I have impossibly unrealistic expectations, or what!

So if this were you, what would you do?

Am I being unrealistic?

Folk how YOU feel IS important. And his staring......how fucking blatent was that!! It shows a complete lack of respect.

LTB!

Well after being lied to by my exh, I said all I wanted from a relationship was honesty. So I suppose I've asked for it really

I just really, really don't understand how, when I'm not slim and attractive, I can ever expect anyone to be genuinely attracted to me. Or fancy me, or fall in love with me. Or be committed to me or anything.

I don't know how to handle the knowledge that they will meet more attractive women they are going to fancy and think about and look at and flirt with. How can I be so arrogant as to think I deserve better? When I got together with my exh, I raised a couple of things I wasn't sure about with my mother and she said I ought to just keep quiet and get on with it because I was lucky anyone was interested.

And that's how I feel.

I don't understand why he'd be with me if he wasn't genuinely interested though.

I think he likes me, but I'm not enough. And the lack of compliments is because, as usual, he likes my personality, but just doesn't really fancy me. It happens every time :(

The boob size thing Folk, I wouldn't take that to heart either! Most blokes (and women who haven't been on the bra intervention threads!) think that a DD is massive and that anything over that is probably some weird outsized thing.

I've gone from a D cup to an F thanks to good fitting advice on here, but nobody believes it as I'm not a stupid 'melon style multiple boob job' type, just a normal size 16.

Folkgirl Look around you, plenty of people who are not conventionally attractive are fallen in love with by people that are nice to them, who want to make love with them.

Your mother was a terrible mother to say that to you, and I am sure there were years of similiar comments prior. You havent asked to be treated badly, nor do you deserve it, you have just been trained to accept it. Please, get some conselling to get her nasty words out of your brain. She was spouting mean and bitter nonsense.

Amy that drives me mad too.

There's always someone more attractive than you out there, even top models don't necessarily have stable relationships- look at poor Halle Berry, even she manages to pick twat after twat and they even cheat on her!

You can't get hung up on looks, if you are attractive enough to attract them for a date or two, then you are attractive enough. Full stop.

I know on mn many don't like this phrase, but I think of myself as 'good for my age'. By that I mean, I know I'm not in my twenties or thirties, I aim to look trim (overweight but holding it all together with a bit of clothing camouflage), have nice hair, have nice make-up and look friendly. Don't start trying to compete or compare yourself with 25 year olds, that way madness lies.

The men I know aren't looking for 25 year olds anyway, they like women around their own age, who look good, who are intelligent and witty and have a twinkle in their eye. Don't you like the same in men?

I bet you felt insecure about your looks at 25 as well anyway, so being young is no cure if you lack self-esteem.

My mum met her new partner when she was in her 60's. She didn't look 25, neither did he. They get on famously well. It's lovely to think you can find a kind nice partner at any age- that's what you are offering, and someone will take you up on it, I'd bet any money.

I know not all men are lamenting not being able to attract 'young' women anymore.

Many years ago, someone very close to me said that they would consider themselves to have made a huge sacrifice if they ever went out with a woman who didn't have big boobs.

And he meant it. I think it's always stuck with me and I think that anyone who is with me will have had to make some pretty big sacrifices and I just don't feel I could ask anyone to do that. Not for any length of time anyway!

I think I probably do need some counselling/therapy, if only to make it easier to get through life on my own.

But I felt so ridiculous and embarrassed starting my counselling relationship by saying "I don't think I'm loveable" and "I don't think I'm attractive enough for a relationship" in case she was just sitting there thinking "you're right".

I wouldn't know how to start the conversation even if I could afford the therapy. How would I even begin to change such deep seated thinking? Especially when I don't think I'm wrong.

FolkGirl, I think this is not the guy for you because even at the best estimate he is tactless and insensitive and if you feel insecure you need a sensitive, tactful, very demonstrative guy. I know people of all sizes and ages who have found love. Some guys are hung up on appearances, others aren't, and actually what I am finding is that the mid-life crisis guys are the worst while some younger men can be surprisingly laid-back about things like weight, age etc.

Although I am not dating I have had three men in their 20's express attraction to me and I am wrinkled, poor, careworn, hassled and huge! However, they seem to value the qualities maturity and the school of hard knocks have brought me. So really it's more about what's inside than outside for both parties.

I am - on the advice of my lovely fellow mumsnetters - taking time out for myself to renew my self-esteem by achieving my own goals - and I can honestly say that with each tiny target I hit I feel better about myself. FolkGirl, you sound lovely. Please don't sell yourself short with someone who makes you feel less than totally loved and secure.

Hi OP

He may not be a bad chap, but he isn't a tactful one. And I really don't like the eyeing up other women when you are out. That's just bad manners. DP and I may have a bit of a letch over our favourite actors on TV, but it's all in good humour, and it's not real people right there in front of us. There's no threat to our relationship or our self esteem. I'd kill him if he started eyeing up real women!

You need to do something about your low self esteem and feeling unattractive/unloveable. You will find any relationship difficult until you are happy with yourself. It's not uncommon - if you go to a counsillor and say those things, they will have heard them about a million times before, and understand exactly where you are coming from. They won't be judging you (that's moving into paranoia ) Don't keep beating yourself up. This is what other people have done to you, emotionally, don't do it to yourself as well. It's not you, it's them.

Many local health authorities have a self-referral scheme for 6 weeks counselling, it's free, you don't have to go through your GP. www.nhs.uk/conditions/stress-anxiety-depression/pages/free-therapy-or-counselling.aspx. Here's some info for you - google up your local IAPT scheme.

someone very close to me said that they would consider themselves to have made a huge sacrifice if they ever went out with a woman who didn't have big boobs

Was he a teenager?

As PP said, a counsellor will have heard all your concerns before and will take you seriously.

You keep mentioning your physical appearance and how it's not good enough. The compliments you are seeking seem to revolve around your appearance. For sure, we all want partners who think we're gorgeous, but an attractive personality and confidence are sexy and enduring - looks aren't. There is only so much we can and should alter about our looks, but there's a lot we can do to improve our inner self and esteem.

No one should put up with a partner who blatantly checks out other randoms in front of us or is always looking over our shoulder though.

Folkgirl - I think your mum has obviously made you feel insecure about your looks - she sounds awful to be honest. I hope you don't mind my saying but I do remember you worrying about your looks on other threads. I still stand by my perception that this man is no good though.

I can understand how you feel because I'm also quite preoccupied by my looks because my parents only ever said nice things about me in relation to my appearance. It was as if it was all they valued about me. I would like to think I'm a nice person but I do worry that I spend too much time stressing about looking nice for partners etc. At the end of the day looks always fade, and decent people are interested mostly about what's inside you. As others have said, it doesn't matter how good looking you are, it doesn't mean you won't get cheated on - Cheryl Cole proves that!

Coming right back to what I feel is the point:
he said it was hard letting go of wanting to be with a young (e.g. 25 yo) woman. ... he had to remind himself that that attractive young woman he'd just seen wouldn't be interested so he had to look at older women seriously instead. I kind of feel like I've been 'settled for'

This alone makes me me feel "No fucking way!" It doesn't matter whether he's saying young women, black/asian/white women, rich women, skinny/fat women, or anything. He has told you he would prefer something different if he could get it.

Coupled with your later posts about the dearth of compliments - and your shaky self-esteem, which is what's making you question this - I strongly recommend you get out of this before you find yourself dancing to the tune of 'pick me'.

For what it's worth, Folk, I'm a little bit in love with you from your posts on here! Don't get excited, I'm not a 40 year old man But you definitely deserve to be wanted for all that you are. You are not a second-shelf substitute of any kind, and shouldn't be squandering your self-worth on anyone who treats you as such. Congrats on your very sound instincts.

"See I'm not sure that he isn't just clumsy"
I can see how analysing him can get pretty confusing; is it him or me? But even if you put everything else aside (which I don't think you should do), what you described regarding his eye-balling hot women whilst with you is not clumsy. It's fuckwittery. No excuses for it whatsoever, not in your imagination, nothing to do with your low self esteem. In other words it's him not you. For me it would be a dumpable offence, because not only do I think it extremely rude and insensitive, but I could see it undermining my self esteem.

"You can't get hung up on looks, if you are attractive enough to attract them for a date or two, then you are attractive enough. Full stop."
Wise words Napoleon

Wow your mum really did a number on you, it's no wonder you have low self esteem when the one person in the world you should be able to rely on for unconditional love and support made you feel that you weren't good enough.

I think you really need some help with that as it will affect any relationship you have in future, but most importantly the one you have with yourself.

FG I wish I could offer you some constructive advice but I cant. I just wanted to let you know you are not alone in feeling this way, I have almost EXACTLY the same thoughts as you about my partner and we are a year and a half down the line and living together. It's bizarre as I don't believe he would cheat yet I have this big nagging voice inside telling me that I'm not what he wants that he's 'settling'
Like you also I know I think badly of myself and don't believe I'm lovable and so it's very hard to tell whether it's them or the way you feel about yourself that triggers all this.
I'm aware I watch him like a hawk when out to see who he looks at and needless to say he does glance at women and we often argue about it. Thing is I think I'd probably be the same with someone else. He is one of the kindest men I've met and treats me very well. I wish you well x

If it was right for you, you would know it.

A lot of men switch off their flirtatious side/attraction for women at work, which is what they should do. My interpretation of what he is saying is that he is preparing you for his future behaviour, once he has secured you to provide him with security to enable his probably unsuccessful flirting.

He sounds quite annoying.

There are two separate issues here: your self-esteem, and his behaviour.

A person with healthy self esteem would see this behaviour and decide it was unacceptable because they deserve better.

You see it and think that although it upsets you, you DON'T deserve better and probably won't get better treatment from anyone else.

You see what he says/does and worry about what that says about you. It doesn't say anything about you, because this behaviour is not acceptable for anyone.

Please, please, please work on your feelings of value and worth.

Self esteem is NOT about how clever or beautiful or funny or talented you are. Self esteem is about what treatment you are willing to accept from other people.

I find all of this so hard. :(

I know how I want to be treated, but you're right, I don't think I have the right to expect it of anyone.

My mother did do a number on me. It doesn't help that I understand why, the impact was the same. I've said on here many times the things she's said. In a nutshell, I was brought up to believe that my only worth lay in how attractive I would be to a man and I wasn't attractive. So I had no worth. It was all the time - you'll never get a boyfriend if you bite your nails; you won't get a husband if you can't cook; no man will ever want you if you

Even traits that are considered attractive (e.g.small waist) were criticised. You have a tiny waist, it just makes your bum look bigger. My whole physical appearance was criticised. All the time.

Personality etc didn't count for anything and I was regularly told I should be more like the worst thing is, the classmates I was compared unfavourably to (and one in particular) weren't as clever, or hard working or well behaved as me. They smoked and drank and lied about going to parties at secondary school. Nothing major, just standard teen stuff. Whereas I worked hard, had glowing school reports, rarely went out... so it wasn't even that. But they were all pretty. And that was all that counted.

I feel so broken that I just don't even know where to start.

Ultimately, my mother felt cheated and embarrassed that she hadn't had an attractive child and I know that contributed to why she didn't love me. I just can't see how someone else could think I'm attractive and love me if my own mother couldn't.

I mean, this isn't even a face that only a mother could love!!

Oh and Gilrack, thanks. That did make me laugh!!

Thanks Allinuse

I wasn't even looking for him doing it. For all the things I have experienced, I haven't had that so I wasn't prined for it. In fact, althoigh I'd noticed it a few times, it took me a good couple of weeks to even really register it was happening.

The sad thing is that he took me away for the weekend to a really nice hotel for my birthday. That was the first time I noticed it.

That was a few weeks ago.

I am getting better because this time last year I rationalised and analysed my way through 10 months of a crappy relationship!

I just don't know where I'm supposed to meet someone who is right for me :(

Ok. Well if I ever needed convincing...we are going out on a date.

We were just sitting at a junction and he leaned forward to look around me at the young woman in the car next to us. I reckon she was about 21.

Decision made.

We were just sitting at a junction and he leaned forward to look around me at the young woman in the car next to us. I reckon she was about 21

Decision made

Aw FolkGirl , that's such blatent fuckwittery, I'm angry on your behalf. How did you react?

Fucking hell, Folkgirl, he's a real twit. You deserve so much better. Please accept this from a total stranger nobody, but nobody, deserves to be looked around by their date.

I sincerely hope you cut the date short and tell him to take you home.

Jesus wept. This guy's a dick. I really hope you are not paying anything on this date. I'd have left, tbh.