Husband's affair: moving forwards in the right direction

[tomatoplantproject]

Previous thread here

Story so far:
Dh had a 7 month affair which I discovered 1 month ago just after he ended it.
We had been having problems in our marriage since the start of the affair which I took the blame for
He has moved out, my toddler dd and I are in the family home.
We had started having couples counselling before I discovered the affair which we are now using to deal with the aftermath
So far he wants reconciliation but doesn't seem to be going about it the right way. I am in 2 minds and hope the right course of action emerges over the next few weeks dependant on his behaviour/way he speaks about me.
Unfortunately the counselling tonight, when I had planned to spill out all of my feelings, has been cancelled. We are still meeting though.
With the support of my amazing parents, a handful of close friends, my adorable dd and of course the wonderful wise ladies of mumsnet I am ok.

Tomato, you know when it finished. It was last week. And she either did it or he did it in a way that made it very clear to her that whilst he still loved her, he had to be a good guy and finish things. Anything other than that and he would have shown you the phone in a heartbeat to prove it was you he wanted. Not your little girl - YOU!

That reason you want him to tell you when it finished is probably because you know he will lie about it and his lies are all you can accept right now. Its self preservation.

That's what I would want to know too, Tom. Why it started in the first place is something he's still got to figure out when he starts stripping away all the bs that he's been telling himself as much as anyone… but from when it started all the way to when it - honestly - finished and why - honestly - it finished… it needs to be out there in the open, staring at both of you, before you go away separately and work out who the person is still standing in the face of it, what they want from life and what needs to happen to get there.

To be clear, the 'why it started' is of course the fundamental question for him to work his way back to who he has become… I just don't think he's going to be able to honestly tell you that now (even if he believes he's being honest).

I am in awe of the posters who have been in this situation and contribute so eloquently and candidly. I don't want to contradict anyone on the thread but much as you want honesty, I fear it will only ever be his version of the truth he gives you.

His comment about how you won't like him if you know the whole truth is very telling.

Tom, remember when Blood said He should admit to Tom the full story of why he didn't show her his phone. He should even show her correspondence (if she wants) between him and the OW so she can get the full picture. He will have this. All lovers do. He will have forwarded it to some anonymous, secret email address or something, for keeping

Have you asked him for this?

I agree Donkeys, that's my feeling, but I've not been in this situation.

The warts and all version is still going to be edited. Ultimately, it's not the where and when that's as important and the why, which, even with brutal honesty probably won't get answered, because he likely doesn't even know himself.

He wouldn't show you his phone because there were things he didn't want you to see. There is no other explanation. You know this. He has to at least admit to this. Without you (or anyone else) prompting him. If not, then you cannot trust him to be honest (not sure you can anyhow).

Wee I always felt that you are an extraordinary woman. I do really admire you. It is hard to imagine how callous your H was. Your kids are lucky to have. I am sure that you give your son the best imaginable care in the world. I hope his behavior is now under control and that you have some peace. I am sure that despite all the trials you went through you find in your heart love and joys, and you continue to be a wonderful Mum and you are a lovely, lively and wise granny (you are so updated by all kind of things going on!) Enjoy your little companion today
Tom he displayed many disturbing behaviors. Stop torturing yourself. It is his problem and the problem of the experts. They must sift through all of it and make sense of it (if they can) and then present you some overall picture that a normal mind and a bleeding heart can somehow deal with. Your priorities right now are YOU and your DD . So look for a counselor that has time for you right now and meet her/him ASAP. No more talks with H about the affair or anything else until he starts some counseling sessions. Only contacts with him must be about DD and with clear boundaries until then. Can your mum be with you for a little while until you have a kind of routine in place with him? Hugs to you and DD.

For me it would be more than just the affair, it's also the timing of it. Tom and him were trying for a baby, he allowed her to go through a fertility procedure while he was telling someone else that she was his soul mate

He actually secretly attended counseling during this period because he couldn't decide whether to stay or leave....who does that. I get what wee birdie is saying now, this is no ordinary infidelity. There is a callousness and selfishness about thus that surprises even me

That the man I married is the "true" him rather than the more recent one.

They're both the "true" him.

There's no way of getting past this with the truth intact unless you both recognise this.

He wasn't under some kind of spell, or coerced in any way.

He chose this.

The man you married always had it in him to cheat on you, to lie to you, to belittle you, to get you to leave your job and then despise you for it, to inflict a house you disliked on you when you were the homemaker, to react with anger for six weeks after his affair was discovered, to be nasty to your mother when she was supporting you, to be too ashamed of his toddler's pictures to display them proudly in his house, to think that adopting a load of designery aesthetic preferences made him better than other people...

You just didn't know it yet.

And he didn't either. It seems that it took a degree of success for him to become an insufferable arse. But it was in him all along, he just wasn't enough of a big shot to give voice to it.

But that's all a part of "the real him".

Can you love a man that let his ego run amok if he genuinely comes to realise what a dick he was?

I don't know. I think I probably could if I thought he was beyond further success causing a relapse.

But he seems very far from humility while he's asking you to help him not be a philanderer.

None of this is on you.

How much would you respect someone if you cheated on them and they agreed to help you dealing with that??

I haven't been through this firsthand so, yes, I won't say further than this post and sorry if it's unhelpful (it's obviously not intended to be)! Finding out the truth about the when and wheres (facts rather than interpretations of why) would be about me because it would have affected my behaviour, my decisions, my feelings, without me knowing why and how… I would would want to piece it together and make sense of what was going on with me at that time. The why question of it finishing… well, yes, Tom's going to have to trust herself to call bullshit on that one if needs be. The why it started… when asking someone for that sort of 'truth', you are always ever only going to get their version - it's impossible not to. The question is whether his version of of 'why' changes if he spends some proper time working on himself, away from Tom. When Tom has taken her time and is ready, whether she is open to the idea of being with him or not at that stage, she will have a new lens to view things through herself.

Can you love a man that let his ego run amok if he genuinely comes to realise what a dick he was?

Will he actually change is the key question for me. Many, many people can get insight into the fact that they've been a dick. But to stop being a dick is really hard.

People tend to think that having identified flaws and owned up to them is enough, but actually it's like being an alcoholic where you only say x days clean... for the rest of your life. So many people repent and do the same thing again.. often because they haven't noticed it was the same behaviour pattern in a new format.

The self-change necessitated here is fairly hefty. My feeling is that even if he commits to it now, he may get tired of the self-policing.

Thank you all.

I know it will be his version of the truth. But I want to match up what was happening then with what was happening in my life. I want to fill in the blanks. Laurie you are right about wanting to know about how my decisions were impacted by what was going on.

The infertility stuff for me is huge, as is the job stuff.

I have said I want to know when it actually finished. I know he wouldn't show me his phone because there was something he was hiding.

I am sick of lies. I just want the truth about what happened and when. The why can come at a later date.

His character? I have no idea. I don't have the head space to think about that right now. But I have to deal with my own shit and looking after dd and I can't take on the burden of supporting him too.

I haven't been in a very good place today. I meant to start finding a counsellor but I haven't had the energy to even think about it.

Ah tom, can you get your mum to come and stay for a couple of days x

It seems that it took a degree of success for him to become an insufferable arse. But it was in him all along, he just wasn't enough of a big shot to give voice to it.

Yes. Ive maintained that from the start.

Tomato, Im really sorry you are hurting so much and that you're in such a tail spin.

Nothing anyone ever said to me helped when I was at my lowest but we are here for you if you fancy buggering off for a few days and taking some time out.

xxxxxxx

Are you still planning to meet him later?

You don't sound in the right place for that at all.

Thank you everyone. I am planning on meeting him later. I have a yoga class in between now and then and am hoping that will sort my head out a bit. If it doesn't I will cancel.

I just want to get it over and done with.

The counsellor has a free space next Monday so it's not 2 weeks to wait before we talk again.

Mum has loads of prior commitments with visitors and my brothers family over the next couple of weeks but yes I will see if she could make a couple of days next week. I need to get through tomorrow and then I start to have some space from dd and some more nice things planned.

And why does he get to be such a special flower even where infidelity is concerned? He can't just be bloody normal can he?!

He's not the victim in this... Despite his dramatics and tears!

Tom, I think everyone who has affairs thinks that theirs is somehow different.

It's just when researchers and writers pull it all together in the various books that are out there is that they all share the same patterns.

You were all right. He is incredibly self absorbed. I only got him to listen to what I wanted and was feeling by pulling him up on it.

He had the grace to look properly shocked when I pointed out toward the end of the evening that he hadn't even asked how I was.

I have the facts about the affair and it's pretty much what I suspected. He was planning on leaving us for 6 or 7 occasions when he had seen her. I'm still not satisfied about the phone thing. Apparently he hadn't cleared the history as I'd asked him to which was why he wouldn't let me see the phone.

He is ready to start planning holidays and little breaks away. I'm so far from that it's untrue. I've told him I need him to start having some therapy because I can't support him in the way that he is asking. I've said I need space because whenever we speak I get pulled back.

We are going to see the counsellor on Monday when she has a slot. I'm going to ask about individual counselling/therapy for both of us.

I ended up in tears by the end of the night. So that ended well.

Aw Tom I'm sorry

Wait...he thinks you can go on holiday together??