Husband's affair: moving forwards in the right direction

[tomatoplantproject]

Previous thread here

Story so far:
Dh had a 7 month affair which I discovered 1 month ago just after he ended it.
We had been having problems in our marriage since the start of the affair which I took the blame for
He has moved out, my toddler dd and I are in the family home.
We had started having couples counselling before I discovered the affair which we are now using to deal with the aftermath
So far he wants reconciliation but doesn't seem to be going about it the right way. I am in 2 minds and hope the right course of action emerges over the next few weeks dependant on his behaviour/way he speaks about me.
Unfortunately the counselling tonight, when I had planned to spill out all of my feelings, has been cancelled. We are still meeting though.
With the support of my amazing parents, a handful of close friends, my adorable dd and of course the wonderful wise ladies of mumsnet I am ok.

[tomatoplantproject]

John - yes I need to consider whether I want to rebuild and vice versa. He clearly had checked out of the marriage some time ago and of course I need to figure out whether I want to spend any more of my life with him.

[MaMaof04]

cute- little girls love pink ballet cloths - just make sure her little toes are not hurt!
Is it a babysitter your little ballerina is used to?
BTW the book does not promise that it will lead with 100% chances to successful rebuilding-this takes hard and tough works from both sides and besides it is hard to predict how feelings evolve- but it is a good enough road map that is more likely than not to lead to healing - whether the partners remain together or go on separate ways. So maybe Tom you might want to put the accent on the healing process that you must go through before even thinking about rebuilding the marriage. It is like demolishing a crumbling building to its foundations before rebuilding a new better one with more robust foundations, instead of just redecorating the original crumbling one. Of course to have the courage to do so one must understand how crumbling is the original building... (how deeply hurt you were by the affair and the lack of honesty when you were having counseling in parallel with the affair that was still u/k to you etc )
Oh dear! It is tough! Good luck! (Hey if you feel weak or whatever when you are talking to him or after you talked to him- be gentle on yourself- embrace your feelings , your behavior; being who you are you will grow and strengthen through them!) Good Luck! (My little ones have a big math test tomorrow- something that fifth graders have all over the world I think- I got to pull them from their legos to the math books .)

[tomatoplantproject]

Thank you mama - that makes sense. So right now we are just exploring what the damage really is.

She does yes.

[tomatoplantproject]

I meant to say your poor boys having to forego Lego for maths

[BathtimeFunkster]

Hi tomato - that really sucks about the counsellor cancelling.

I think you're right that it's time to start talking, but it's a shame you have to meet him no backup when he's being such a colossal arse.

I had a feeling he might be an architect. For various reasons I have a lot of close family and friends who are (or were) architects and the utter dickishness of architects as a profession is a common complaint.

Knocking the pretentiousness out of someone who takes himself way too seriously is one thing (doesn't he realise what a laughable, embarrassing stereotype he is? ).

But misogyny is not really something you can fix, given that you are just a silly little woman.

[DrMorbius]

Misogyny and Misandry are equally hard to fix I guess.

[tomatoplantproject]

I actually hadn't come across many architects before I met dh. When I look at his/now our friends who are architects he is definitely the one who is becoming more pretentious as time goes by. Argh!! Because that isn't me at all.

I'm going to go for dinner with him. He won't be able to get too aggressive in a public setting - it's not violence but the anger that I'm wary of. I am perfectly capable of walking off if it gets too much.

I just need some stock phrases. I'm thinking:

I need some time to think about that
Please don't say any more which you may come to regret.
I think we should put this subject to one side and discuss again at a later date

You're right about the misogyny. I suspect it's all the small undermining comments that have done for me and I don't know how long that has been going on. Just being around people who are supportive of me has done wonders for my confidence over the last few weeks.

What I'm becoming increasingly sure about is that dd and I could have a very happy little home together. Even if I am just a little woman

[BathtimeFunkster]

Misandry, being entirely invented by hard done by misogynists, will have exactly the same cure.

[tomatoplantproject]

What's that? Leaving? Becoming free?

[Weebirdie]

Please keep in mind that more than one person on your thread thinks there is more to your husband than meets the eye, that he can never change because of the way he is made.

I honestly believe that if you get back together you will spend your life living his problem and that it will eventually break you further down the line. No amount of you reading or becoming his counsellor or psychiatrist will make him any different. You're life will revolve around him and the things he does because he really isn't capable of not being that person.

Im away on holiday tonight but you'll be in my thoughts and I wish you all the best.

xxxx

[popalot]

Good luck. But don't ask/tell him too much. It would be much more revealing if you just listened to what he's saying - that will tell you what he really thinks rather than what you want him to think.

For example, if you ask him how he thinks his affair affected you, listen to what he says. If he says 'I don't know' it shows he lacks empathy for you. If he really opens up and seems to understand the devastating imapct on you then there is a chance he cares. If he comes up with stock phrases or even refuses to talk about it then again you have your answer - he doesn't empathise with you.

SO, try not to feed him ideas or lead his answers in any way because a. you will get frustrated and upset and b. you will not get a true reflection of this man's feelings and empathy towards you.

[tomatoplantproject]

Thank you Weebirdie - I understand what you are saying. I am much more informed, more aware, thanks to all of you. I'm going to see what happens tonight but if I was to be pushed to make a decision right now about whether or not to have him back I would say no. I'm much more cynical than I was before this mess happened.

I was thinking earlier that if he has ground me down over the years then maybe his affair is a blessing in disguise. I would have continued to work and work to make our marriage a success and lost myself completely in the process. Right now I have a get out clause, and even if I take him back for a while I will be much closer to breaking things off. It would have been unthinkable before I found out about the affair.

What I can't remember clearly is what life was like with him in the year or so before the affair. I don't know whether I've missed some pretty big clues or whether she really did turn his head and his attitude towards me.

Enjoy your trip! One thing I'm jealous of is all these trips away. Dd and I are planning camping with my parents but it's not quite the same.

[tomatoplantproject]

Popalot - yes I think that is my plan to begin with and to start the conversation.

Right. I need to rescue my cat. Dd is currently trying to put an oven glove on his head

[BloodontheTracks]

Tom, ha! I'd be happy to. and please I hope none of this comes across as criticism of you at all. I think you're brilliant. I only humbly hope to offer another perspective on this from personal experience. In full disclosure I have been betrayed by my partner in the past, but before that with someone else, I myself had an affair. So I speak from both sides of this and the psychology involved. Good luck and I know that him hearing the narrative fro your side will challenge his own romantic, heroic nonsense.

With the greatest respect, my view is that the language you use here suggests two pretty important things that you may want to consider in the coming months.

1 One is that there seems to be, as there is in many relationships, a power imbalance that has emerged in your relationship. His explaining to you 'what is going on' from his counselling perspective. you talking about having the book as a roadmap to 'help him through this'. The references to his work and his entitlement within it. Of course I know you are not a shrinking wallflower but you seem to default to him as central and empowered in the relationship, even now. As if he is worthy of attention and decision and you are lectured by him and there to 'help him through this'. Almost as if he is the protagonist and you his sidekick. almost as if he thinks he is the real one with the understanding and the truth and you aren't quite real, or perhaps also on some level, lucky to be with him. This is extremely common in relationships where there's been an infidelity. He is an individual with a glam job and a love affair you know nothing of and you are defined in your relation to him. You may want to think a bit more about this and see how you interact with him in person. I have concerns that he has fundamentally more power or status in the relationship than you. Many individual counsellors actually work hard to support their client's point of view (because who returns every week to pay to be told they are wrong?!) so he will be being further empowered there. I suspect your husband is fundamentally secure in his entitlement and that will take some shifting, and I would actually encourage you to look at your own independence to challenge this, which brings me on to my second point.

1. This is always tricky but I have found it to be the case that very few relationships survive healthily after affairs unless the betrayed partner genuinely and meaningfully detaches from the cheater, and realistically imagines and even lives their life without the other for a while, and is not afraid of it.
   

It is only by truly knowing we would be fine if we left that we can ever truly CHOOSE to stay. Otherwise it is clinging on and taken for granted and all negotiation from weakness and return to status quo. When you say things like 'to agree how to rebuild' it pre-supposed a lot. It suggests that rebuilding is inevitable when frankly, it is not. It may be impossible, or at least impossible to do in a way where you will be happy and him faithful. And accepting that might seem negative or scary but I think it is essential to changing the power dynamic in the relationship and changing the mindset of the betrayed to something much more liberated and powerful.

Cheaters are motivated by the reality of loss. Someone can sense if their partner wouldn't ever really leave them. That mindset is so so different from someone who genuinely feels they have lost something. it keeps all the power ultimately with the cheater and forced the betrayed to still quietly do the 'pick me' dance, even though it's not on the surface. It means you are afraid to make totally reasonable demands like, 'it would be meaningful to me if you read this book and we could talk about it'. The fact that you seem unwilling to make such tiny demands suggests on some level you are frightened of angering him, and then of course, losing him. Of being 'that woman'.

It is within your expectations and beliefs that the greatest change must take place if you truly wish to see a meaningful 'change' in him (and what does that mean, really?). that's terrifying but true. your future is not secure. You cannot hold this relationship together as inevitable. Words mean NOTHING. Only his actions. Towards you. As the new centre. There is fundamental stuff here. you don't have to address it right now, of course. But you will need to address it.

[BloodontheTracks]

cross posted. Glad to hear it! Offering you all affection and support. Go girl etc !

[Earsareconstantlyringing]

I heard some great advice earlier this week, which was to forgive, but not forgive easily or too quickly. He betrayed you and your trust, and it's down to him to prove to you that he's worthy of earning it again. He absolutely should work for it, and you can be the one who decides if a future with him is the right thing or not.

Good luck OP, take it one day at a time and only move at a pace that you're happy with.

[Pollyswall]

Fantastic post from BloodontheTracks

[tomatoplantproject]

Thanks blood, and thank you for your honesty.

I need to come back to your post in a few days I think. In terms of power I think you are right - there has been a fundamental imbalance.

Where I need to carefully think is how my own family dynamic is brought into play. I have a super successful older brother who was always a star at everything he did growing up. Dh had the same dynamic. He was the successful older brother.

It's like I can see the issues but I don't know how to change my own role in all of this.

[Christinayanglah]

Good luck for tonight

Remember tonight is only The first step of a long journey, you don't have get it all right tonight, it's a lot of pressure on you and I can't help but think it may be a bit of an anti climax x

[MaMaof04]

Plenty of wise advice on here. You can ignore all of it if you want- we will still be here to support you! Meanwhile enjoy the time you are on your own, between locking your door and reaching where you will meet- IMO it is a nice parenthesis that adds that special lightness to the everyday life grit! (unless he comes to pick you up- that would have been a bit difficult for me to handle: straight from the enjoyable presence of DD to the 'apprehended' meeting with H, with no time to adjust!)
About trips: I love camping- My H does not.
Have a nice trip wee
So Good Luck for tonight! or as the French say: MERDE!

[doubleshotespresso]

Tomato no real words of wisdom for you, have been lurking and been so bowled over by your strength, level-headedness and dignity in all of this. The man has behaved like a selfish fool and you deserve better, I really hope this thread has shown you how much more you are worth here....

Let's see if he recognises this in time.

Wishing you the very best for this evening, really hope you get some of the answers you need....

[FantasticButtocks]

Do you know breathing techniques for calming down? In through nose, then slow release with long outbreath through relaxed lips. Try this from time to time and flatten your shoulder blades down. Best of luck - it may go better than you think.

[tomatoplantproject]

Thanks everyone. Dd is currently I the bath and I have managed to wash the green paint out of her hair with no tantrums which is a complete breakthrough for us.

I'm sitting here listening to her chatter just wishing the evening were over. I'm nervous about what else I'm going to find out. And I'm nervous that I won't say what I need to get out. And I'm nervous that he will just blindside me with charm and I won't feel a thing.

[DrMorbius]

Tomato - from what I have read on here from you, you will do brilliantly tonight. Try to be relaxed all the time.

[tomatoplantproject]

Well. That's not an experience I particularly want to repeat.

He said that he was still in love with me but when I asked him why he had no idea. He gave me some cock and bull story about everything we have built together, all of our history, he still is madly in love with me. I call bullshit.

He said that he knew what he did was wrong but that he didn't know why he did it - excitement maybe - so couldn't guarantee that it wouldn't happen in the future.

I asked him how he thought I felt and he said utterly betrayed. When I asked him why he looked at me and said because he had the affair with her.

I said that, yes, I felt betrayed by her but right now I was most angry about how he had behaved with me the whole time he had been with her. I let rip. Me and a glass of wine are not very good companions right now.

He now knows exactly what I think of him. I have pretty much said everything I have said to you guys on this thread. I said it would take years to build up trust again. I asked if he had been in touch with her, and he said he had but weeks ago to tell her what had happened. I then asked to see his phone and he refused.

I said that the worst was that he called her the love of his life. And that he had replicated everything we had together and so cheapened our whole marriage. I broke down and had to go outside for some air. I could have howled at that point.

I told him I thought he was an empty shell of his former self and that success had gone to his head. I said that I missed the kind, compassionate, loving, fun man that I had married. I was trying to figure out which was the real him.

I said we needed to rebuild trust and be completely honest with each other. I said it would take a long time and that right now I didn't trust him one bit. I said if he loves me and wanted to make it work he would let me look at his phone and he said he wouldn't on point of principle. I said that we shouldn't be talking point of principle right now.

He has accused me of being angry and giving myself licence to say whatever I wanted. I said too right. I said that being called vindictive hurt - that I could have been far far far more vindictive if I had wanted to be but had needed space.

I accused him of showing absolutely no compassion, not apologising with any heart, and being cruel for some of the things he allowed me to believe.

I am not particularly proud of myself for some of the things I said because I didn't intend to get personal but I said a couple of times that I am so emotional right now that it isn't wise to be in my vicinity.

I'm not entirely sure whether we will be able to move on. I said I want him to seek help again from a counsellor - he hasn't seen one since I found out - and that I would research a book and get a copy for both of us to read.

Right now I've found my deal breakers. Zero compassion/empathy for me shown so far, and not letting me look at his phone. I think I'm out.

And almost the worst part - he was knocked off his bike on the way - clearly in pain and so now I feel like the mega bitch for kicking him whilst he is down.

I should probably get this post deleted in a day or two in case I've said too much but I just need to spill it out.