Husband's affair: moving forwards in the right direction

[tomatoplantproject]

Previous thread here

Story so far:
Dh had a 7 month affair which I discovered 1 month ago just after he ended it.
We had been having problems in our marriage since the start of the affair which I took the blame for
He has moved out, my toddler dd and I are in the family home.
We had started having couples counselling before I discovered the affair which we are now using to deal with the aftermath
So far he wants reconciliation but doesn't seem to be going about it the right way. I am in 2 minds and hope the right course of action emerges over the next few weeks dependant on his behaviour/way he speaks about me.
Unfortunately the counselling tonight, when I had planned to spill out all of my feelings, has been cancelled. We are still meeting though.
With the support of my amazing parents, a handful of close friends, my adorable dd and of course the wonderful wise ladies of mumsnet I am ok.

There's also another way of looking at a stalemate. If someone is refusing to give information, it's because they know that the truth would make the other partner leave them and the cheater can't deal with how bad it makes them look. In that way, they ARE giving information by not disclosing. Just not the details. If he thinks you would leave him by knowing the truth, then you probably would.

Tomato, please don't spring a surprise visit to him on holiday and not just because the fact you've 'suggested' it means your situation is still all wrong.

You mentioned your husband steering things and this was exactly what my post of yesterday was about. The men who are all about me me me being great at persuading a loving partner that everything they are doing by way of support is for the greater good whilst the reality is that its only great for Mr me me me.

Re therapy, Ive done both of these - Person Centred Therapy and Transactional Analysis.

Im sorry if my posts are all doom and gloom, its just thats its very hard to see someone up against it the way your are.

xxx

There's also another way of looking at a stalemate. If someone is refusing to give information, it's because they know that the truth would make the other partner leave them and the cheater can't deal with how bad it makes them look. In that way, they ARE giving information by not disclosing. Just not the details. If he thinks you would leave him by knowing the truth, then you probably would.

Yes.

I was hoping I was saying that.

There's also another way of looking at a stalemate. If someone is refusing to give information, it's because they know that the truth would make the other partner leave them and the cheater can't deal with how bad it makes them look. In that way, they ARE giving information by not disclosing. Just not the details. If he thinks you would leave him by knowing the truth, then you probably would

Exactly that

So then the question becomes, do you actually need to know the details themselves to take the action? Why?

And also, how do you expect there to be any power rebalance in your relationship when the more arrogant partner is still holding you to ransom with information he won't disclose because he wants control of the decision, situation and relationship gong forward?

I'm in no way sticking up for him. But if you don't talk how are you expecting him to tell you anything?

I agree with a previous poster who said your councillor is being paid to do their job. Their job is relationship counselling, of course they're going to help you get on the right track of being together. So if you're not even thinking of that right now I don't see how this relationship counselling will help things?

I hope none of this post comes across the wrong way because honestly I'm 100% on your side, but if you aren't thinking of getting back together yet I don't think it's a good idea to visit a relationship councillor who understandably is going to do their job - try and help you both get back together.

I think he's a complete arsehole for what he's done but you say you want answers, the whole truth, his honest feelings etc, but you're not going to get that in just 1 hour a week.

Personally I think you need to talk more away from the sessions.
Not just that but your husbands probably thinking "there's obviously a chance of us getting back together otherwise why would she want relationship councilling. If our marriage was over we wouldn't be going there". And as long as he's got that little bit of hope I can't see him telling you everything. Why would he?

i don't think surprising him on holiday is a great idea, he might see that as a good thing, but I'd at least look into his emails and look at booking confirmations. If he's going alone it'll say 1 person.
Even if it's a hotel he's booked it'll say how many people are booked into the room he's got.

Yes that's sort of what I was trying to say about the power struggle above. From his point of view, he has no need or advantage in disclosing the information Tom wants. Why would he? He can maintain control and still have a very good chance of them getting back together so why wouldn't he do that? The only motivation for him to admit would be if he thought and knew that it was his only hope of being with her, a bottom line I'm not sure Tom is ready to commit to. In the meantime, he could meet the OW on holiday if he wanted to suss out her interest and still keep both possibilities open.

Perhaps this is an example of Tom learning not to be steered by him and being very front foot and clear about what her demand is and the consequences of what he then chooses to do. It may be that learning to have a bottom line and to place clear reasonable demands would be a good start in her new life.

I dunno though. I'm hesitant to make it tom's responsibility. Really he should be coming to her and saying, 'i'll tell you anything you want to know. It's over and I understand you need complete honesty if you are ever going to start rebuilding trust in me'. The fact that he hasn't acted this way after such a long time is incredibly bad and does not bode well and disempowers Tom completely. It's an extension of the original unequal relationship, because he is only prepared to try again if he can be in charge of what is and is not disclosed and so the basis of the marriage. His stonewalling is a tactic to put her back in the metaphorical sidecar of their marriage. It implies that he is still keeping the OW on the backburner so feels no real loss, only ambivalence. I suspect if nothing changes he will return from the holiday 'alone' and make moves to leave for good, blaming Tom for 'not committing' and beginning a relationship secretly with OW.

I suspect if nothing changes he will return from the holiday 'alone' and make moves to leave for good, blaming Tom for 'not committing' and beginning a relationship secretly with OW.

Yes. This. He wont be the first or last to say they want a reconciliation then orchestrate a situation that means they are the actual one to leave.

Not just that but your husbands probably thinking "there's obviously a chance of us getting back together otherwise why would she want relationship councilling. If our marriage was over we wouldn't be going there". And as long as he's got that little bit of hope I can't see him telling you everything. Why would he?

That's a really good point.

And Blood you are on great form today, some very good observations again.

I agree that Tom needs to talk to him at some point, but she has said that for the moment she finds it 'too difficult'. That's her call.

Going through it all with the counsellor and then with her sounds good. It's a very odd time to be taking a holiday when your marriage is in the balance, but hey ho at least he'll get to chillax eh?

As for having to 'steer' Tom, because she 'lacks drive' that is so fucking outrageous!

As for having to 'steer' Tom, because she 'lacks drive' that is so fucking outrageous!

Its shorthand for we do it my way or its the highway.

To sum up then:
I can't commit until he tells me the truth
He won't tell me the truth because then I will scarper because the truth is far worse than I currently am imagining
The truth is a pretty abstract concept so the whole truth will only be a partial truth, or the real truth is the truth I can't believe.
He can't tell me the truth because I'm not really allowing him to talk to me
He is going on holiday to meet the Italian Job
(For the record I'm not going out there to spy on him)
When he gets back he's going to finish with me - telling me its because I won't commit, but actually because he has resumed things with her.

I'm not actually sure I know what to do with this. I'm utterly confused. There is a piece of me that thinks if this is the case then job done. I can then move forward unencumbered.

If it doesn't? Well who knows.

In the meantime I need to just keep plodding on.

I suspect if nothing changes he will return from the holiday 'alone' and make moves to leave for good, blaming Tom for 'not committing' and beginning a relationship secretly with OW.

Exactly.

You need to do what YOU want to do and what is best for you - and that is focusing on moving on.

That way you rebuild your life and if you do ever get back with him, you will be a much stronger person, more able to lead the life you want with him...

I would tell him that no it's isn't okay to go on holiday. If he has a week off he should be using that time to support you, he should be helping with dd and both of you could be using the time she is at nursery to talk. Even if you decided that you are don't you still need to talk and get some closure. Thee are conversations that you need to have

There's no certainties here. Only likelihoods. I'd say the likelihood is that he is still in contact with OW and waiting to see if you will 'fight' (or concede) to being in a marriage with him where he calls the shots (i.e. beginning with accepting his facts about the affair which you already know to be untrue). As to whether he is meeting her, we cannot know, but it's a very weird time and choice and fits with previous infidelitous behaviour. So that makes it possible. If he does do that we are just saying be prepared for a change in stance on his return that will seek to place blame on you, unfairly.

But perhaps asking you would be more helpful. Forgetting our suppositions, maybe there's a time for you to take stock of your own wants and needs when the time is right. You might wish to ignore these questions until you have spent more time building your strength and independence.

Why do you think he won't tell you the details of his affair and recent contact with the OW?
Why does he say he won't?

Is it important to you? is it necessary for you to move forward? Why? Are there any bottom lines involved in that? i.e if you discovered certain things that would be it?

What will you do if he doesn't tell you these things? Or continues to lie about them?

Have you asked him if he is still in contact with the OW and the nature of that relationship? Does it matter to you?

What has he done to make you believe he wants to make your marriage work?

Why do you want to make your marriage work? If you do.

What is your timeline now for being separate from him? Do you consider yourself single? Does he?

I would reserve judgement until you have his 'honest' account.

Where is he going on holiday? Is he actually going to Italy?

He has been asking Tom to go on holiday since all of this came to light and I don't for a minute believe its not a carefully thought out ploy of his to get her on the easy way out holiday he's wanted her on from the start.

And if she says no, don't go, she's going to have to come up with a reason why, and that will probably mean talking.

Either way he is getting his own way.

Damned if she does and damned if she doesnt.

I can't commit until he tells me the truth
He won't tell me the truth because then I will scarper because the truth is far worse than I currently am imagining

But in all fairness, apart from your hourly sessions each week, you're not giving him an opportunity to talk. You've told him not to. If he does what you say and doesn't talk, you think he's holding back, but when he does, he's doing what you've asked him not to do (not give you space).

I just think you're better off talking to each other away from the sessions. Say 1 hour a day for example. Write down your thoughts and feelings after each chat with him...

But as long as you carry on going to these sessions with him he's going to think you're eventually getting back together.

Exactly Weebirdie - he's been gunning for a 'fix it' holiday from the start... I'm not going to assume he's going with OW... that may be completely over for all we know...

In fairness Tom has met up and talked to him, and she's come away from most of those meetings unimpressed and depressed by his behaviour. She's perfectly entitled to talk to him as and when she feels able to. He deserves no 'opportunities'. What she has asked him to do is give him information about the affair timeline and he has not or has lied about it. He has also refused to show her his phone when asked for it at one of these meetings.

What more can she possibly be expected to do if he is falling down on the most basic things? Go on holiday with him and 'have a nice time'? She has arranged timed, professional meetings with which to discuss things with a neutral presence there and he has still failed to admit or act in such a way as to begin the process of her considering taking her back. Why should she chase him to try and convince him to convince her?! The most she should do is give him a very clear message about what she requires to begin the conversation, which I believe she has(?) regarding the details of the affair.

I would tell him no because it is a feckin cheek that he is buggering off for a week leaving tom to get on with it when she has already done two months on her own. He has had enough selfish time

I also agree with fearless, there has to be conversations now, no matter what the outcome

Every time, you see him, I get hopeful and then disappointed!
(Sort of joke)
Not once has it sounded like he was desperate for you. since he refused to show you the phone it seems that he's been saying that he would quite like you back, but meh, whatever.